Cold start issue....

[tbone]

My car has a cold start issue. In the morning, it starts right up but dies if I don't feather the throttle for 20 seconds or so. It sputters a little and sometimes dies a second time and is a little harder to start the second time. I cleaned the IAC, the MAF is clean, no vacuum leaks that I can find. The fuel mileage has also gone down considerably. Any ideas?

[MMBLUE]

My car has a cold start issue. In the morning, it starts right up but dies if I don't feather the throttle for 20 seconds or so. It sputters a little and sometimes dies a second time and is a little harder to start the second time. I cleaned the IAC, the MAF is clean, no vacuum leaks that I can find. The fuel mileage has also gone down considerably. Any ideas?


Sounds like a seafoam treatment is in your future ;)

[tbone]

The Eaton and lower were all new this summer. The intake is spotless.
I think it's something to do with the coolant temp sensor?

[Motorhead350]

I had this exact issue. The cause was the sensor attached to your COT. (cross over tube) I had the wrong one in the passenger side. There are 2 sensors and they are different passenger to drivers. Passenger has a cone looking shape (what is inside the COT) and the drivers is flat. Your sensor might have gone out. If so, good luck finding one. I had one hell of a time finding the right one and needed my old one shipped back. I accidentally sent it out when I sold my S/C kit.

[Motorhead350]

I would start it, it would fire up and INSTANTLY shut right back down. It took a little throttle to keep it alive to warm up, like a carbureted car with NO CHOKE.

[tbone]

That is the issue.

I'm looking for the SW-1574 and can't find it when googling. DY-1145 is everywhere.

EDIT: These are wrong part numbers. SEE POST #8.

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Just called three different ford dealer parts desks and they all told me the same thing for the placement of the sensors.




Driver side gets the switch sensor (for pcm/fan):


Motorcraft part number: SW-1574






Passenger side gets the temperature gauge sensor:


Motorcraft part number: DY-1145

__________________

[tbone]

_______________________

[tbone]

Copied from Forum:


Just got confirmation from the gentleman who bought my brand new coolant crossover tube.

Driver side sensor part number:
F77F-10884-AB (SW-5174)

Passenger side sensor part number:
F5AF-12A648-AB (DY-1144)

(I was wrong in my post earlier today regarding the passenger side sensor part number.)

[tbone]

Now that I found the correct part numbers I went ahead and ordered them both from RA. Only @ $33 shipped for both.

[tbone]

I had this exact issue. The cause was the sensor attached to your COT. (cross over tube) I had the wrong one in the passenger side. There are 2 sensors and they are different passenger to drivers. Passenger has a cone looking shape (what is inside the COT) and the drivers is flat. Your sensor might have gone out. If so, good luck finding one. I had one hell of a time finding the right one and needed my old one shipped back. I accidentally sent it out when I sold my S/C kit.


Thanks Dom! :burnout:

[justbob]

Ford has them in stock normally. Passenger side is for the PCM, drivers side is gauge.

If the PCM and the IAT aren't within 5* of each other at cold start up you will definitely have issues. Easy to data log.


Builder Of Badassery

[Jeffonebuck]

I've got a set I can send you "freeby" if you can cancel your order.


Every bad situation is a blues song waiting to happen.

[Zack]

It's a cold start fuel issue and not helped any by winter blend gas.
You are wasting your time changing the sensors IMHO

[Motorhead350]

It's a cold start fuel issue and not helped any by winter blend gas.
You are wasting your time changing the sensors IMHO

If you are so sure on what is isn't, why don't you tell him what it is.

[Zack]

If you are so sure on what is isn't, why don't you tell him what it is.

I did. You are just brain dead.

Now go back, re-read and tell us you're a dummy.

[justbob]

I've battled with this for over two years and gave up. Nothing left besides tuning adjustment.


Builder Of Badassery

[JohnE]

Probably just needs a tweak of the cold start tables in the tune. I had to make a few adjustments to mine a while back when the weather turned cooler than normal.

[tbone]

It started when it got cold out. And once it started doing it, the fuel mileage went into the toilet. Like 6 mpg around town, from 10-11. I'll risk $33 and change out both sensors, even though just the one needs attention. I'm also changing the stat, since it seems to take forever to warm up.

Oh, and the exhaust smells rich. No cats, so it always stinks, but worse than normal.

[JohnE]

Start by data logging the temperature readings. Initial start in the morning should have the Cylinder Head Temp (actually a coolant temp sensor) matching the Ambient temp seen on the EATC (HVAC Controller). And then in about 5-10 minutes of operation, the CHT should be about 190F. If this is happening, then don't mess with the sensors. If not, burp air pocket or change the sensor.

Start with data instead of guessing.


+1 on changing the thermostat. My car's heater works awesome in 5 minutes of driving on a 40F morning.

[tbone]

For $33 I'll make an educated guess. I don't have the equipment to datalog.

[Zack]

Start by data logging the temperature readings. Initial start in the morning should have the Cylinder Head Temp (actually a coolant temp sensor) matching the Ambient temp seen on the EATC (HVAC Controller). And then in about 5-10 minutes of operation, the CHT should be about 190F. If this is happening, then don't mess with the sensors. If not, burp air pocket or change the sensor.

Start with data instead of guessing.


+1 on changing the thermostat. My car's heater works awesome in 5 minutes of driving on a 40F morning.

5-10 minutes?
If its 20 degrees or under, it takes 20-25 minutes (idling) to get to 190!

[Zack]

For $33 I'll make an educated guess. I don't have the equipment to datalog.

Yes you do, you have a tuner and a laptop.

[tbone]

Ok, I don't know how to do it. Spring project I guess. For now I'll just change the sensor and stat.

[Motorhead350]

It's a cold start fuel issue and not helped any by winter blend gas.
You are wasting your time changing the sensors IMHO


If you are so sure on what is isn't, why don't you tell him what it is.


I did. You are just brain dead.

Now go back, re-read and tell us you're a dummy.

I do not see anything where you tell him the solution.

Don't you have a car to build to increase the size of your internet ding dong?

[tbone]

Let's be civil guys.

From everything I've read and Dom's similar situation, I'm putting my money on the sensor. I'll let you know how it turns out.

[Zack]

Sensors only go bad if the electrical portion got twisted or damaged.

It is VERY rare they would go bad otherwise.

A cobra has much different cold start values due to it having a supercharger.
I would bet the farm that's what's wrong.
Been down that road....

[Motorhead350]

Be sure you get the correct one Tommy.

An engine code can tell you which one it is. Electronics are not refundable unless you know someone or throw a huge fit.

[tbone]

Sensors only go bad if the electrical portion got twisted or damaged.

It is VERY rare they would go bad otherwise.

A cobra has much different cold start values due to it having a supercharger.
I would bet the farm that's what's wrong.
Been down that road....


Well I'm f***ed then because I've given up on Mr. Barth.

I'm going to spend the money and have some shop that actually gives a sh** re-tune it from scratch in the spring.

[Motorhead350]

I feel your pain. Tuners do not give a crap about the customer after it rolls out of the shop. I have yet to find one that will not rant about how stupid people are and not take a look at how selfish and cold they truly are.

[martyo]

Well I'm f***ed then because I've given up on Mr. Barth.

I'm going to spend the money and have some shop that actually gives a sh** re-tune it from scratch in the spring.

*smh*

I have offered my services over and over again.

[Motorhead350]

*smh*

I have offered my services over and over again.

I take back my post.

Mo and his shop has been the best experience... the only shop that cares after you pay them. And continue to do so!

[Zack]

Well I'm f***ed then because I've given up on Mr. Barth.

I'm going to spend the money and have some shop that actually gives a sh** re-tune it from scratch in the spring.

You were at his shop just weeks after he lost his 21 year old son.
Get a grip man.
He has settled down now and has his own dyno on his personal property in southern Wisconsin.

I have never had any issue with any tuner.
You just have to know how to talk to them

[martyo]

You just have to know how to talk to them

There is irony in that statement that my 14 hour day will not allow me to address. :P

[tbone]

You were at his shop just weeks after he lost his 21 year old son.
Get a grip man.
He has settled down now and has his own dyno on his personal property in southern Wisconsin.

I have never had any issue with any tuner.
You just have to know how to talk to them


He should not have taken on more business if his head wasn't in the game due to the loss of his son. I questioned myself as to whether I should go to him so soon after it happened.
I kissed his butt while he made numerous ridiculous mistakes working on my car and somehow blamed me for everything. Yes I got angry, and then went back to kissing his butt again so I could get the work finished up.
He finally made an appt. with me and then cancelled because he had to be "up all night" to plow a whopping 1" of snow. Now he is back to ignoring my requests for another appt. I give up.

Don't tell me to get a grip Zack. It's been 6 1/2 months. I've held my grip long enough.

[DTUB]

Ironically im having the same cold start issues that your having.
Tim is an excellent WOT tuner but struggles a little with idle and part throttle.
I'll try again in the spring in his new shop.

[Motorhead350]

All tuners are the same except for Mo's.

Unless you speak dyno, they see you as an idiot, are totally narsasistic, take on too much work themsleves instead of hiring new people, take on more projects than one can handle, wonder off your project, blame O2 sensors, blame the driver for really bad gas mileage... try 11mpg highway, think they are smarter than everyone and to top it all off think everyone is selfish.

dealing with a woman during the messy time of the month is a softer blow than dealing with these people.

Sorry to be on a rant Tommy, but I agree with you. The guy should have said he wasn't up for it if he wasn't emotionally stable, instead of being selfish and keeping you hanging.

[Zack]

^^^^^any vendor who has not written you off will be treated like a hero by you.

/thread.

[JohnE]

It is quite a bit of work to properly calibrate the PCM for all situations, especially after major engine modifications. I chose to do my own tuning and I can verify that it takes a lot of time with trial and error to nail everything down. Tuners that have a chance to work with a particular platform and typical configuration will be more likely to have the best results.

I am willing to share my experiences and calibration changes, but don't think that copying my settings will 'fix' your issues.

[tbone]

I think that this spring I am going to take a Monday off work, drive on Sunday to Mo's, spend the night at a fleabag motel, get the tuning done and drive back on Tuesday. 12 hours, 743 miles.

[Motorhead350]

^^^^^any vendor who has not written you off will be treated like a hero by you.

/thread.

No vendor has "written me off." I do not know what kinda world you live in or you think you live in. Unless I make the information public on where I am going and you call them first... because you would do something like that. Even if that happens, there are lots to choose from.


I think that this spring I am going to take a Monday off work, drive on Sunday to Mo's, spend the night at a fleabag motel, get the tuning done and drive back on Tuesday. 12 hours, 743 miles.

He is totally worth your time!

[fastblackmerc]

I think that this spring I am going to take a Monday off work, drive on Sunday to Mo's, spend the night at a fleabag motel, get the tuning done and drive back on Tuesday. 12 hours, 743 miles.

Maybe Marty will let you setup a cot in one of the bays?

[MMBLUE]

Thread bomb.. One of the best banters/threads this year.

tbone- Good choice. Marty's good peeps.

[tbone]

New OEM temp tstat, cold start sensor and sending unit sensor went in this am.

1. Car was warmed up a little before I started the work, so not sure about the cold start issue. I'll find that out tomorrow morning.
2. Exhaust does not reek and suffocate me anymore. I am not running cats. So it obviously has leaned out properly. What a relief. It stunk!
3. The transmission shifts WAY better than it ever has since I supercharged and even before that. It seems to be getting the right info to the ECU now. It's much, much closer to being in the right gear at the right time. Some choice tweaks would still be nice.
4. A slight stutter at constant speed is gone.
5. It immediately settles into a nice, steady idle on warm starts.
6. Drove 20 miles and didn't use 1/4 tank. It's barely below F.

So, a success for very little money and effort. Time for a Meister Brau and to drain the crapper.

[Motorhead350]

Keep me posted. One was a flat end and one was a cone shape correct?

[tbone]

They changed them. No cone shape. One flat end with ridge on it (that replaced the cone) and one with a flat end, no ridge. Motorcraft.

http://www.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imageurl=http%3A% 2F%2Fwww.rockauto.com%2Finfo%2 FMotorcraft%2F3F1Z12A648A-FRO.jpg&imagekey=2312990-0&width=500
DY-1144

http://www.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imageurl=http%3A% 2F%2Fwww.rockauto.com%2Finfo%2 FMotorcraft%2FSW5174-FRO.jpg&imagekey=386765-0&width=500
SW-5174

[tbone]

Cold start issue remains. I can live with it.

[Zack]

You have PRP, Just adjust the cold fuel tables!

[tbone]

I don't have the mtf file to do it.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Interesting. My car starts up just as healthy as when stock, even when it has been 20 degrees or less. Eager to find out what is causing this on your car.

[Zack]

I don't have the mtf file to do it.

I went through all that trouble to extract your file and now you say you don't have it???

In case you forgot, It's a value file because we had different pcm codes.

Emails are from 9-21-14

[tbone]

Zack,
Remember we talked about this and the mtf file you very kindly sent me threw out a bunch of codes and didn't solve my issues? You said this could happen with the codes. I had to go back to my trans guy and have him use his scan tool to get things back to normal. I had no lockup anymore and no amount of erasing codes or returning it to a previous tune with my SCT would fix it. I no longer have your file for this reason.

[Motorhead350]

You need the cone shape or no change will occur. Cone on the passenger side.

I learned this last year.

[tbone]

Copied from Forum:


Just got confirmation from the gentleman who bought my brand new coolant crossover tube.

Driver side sensor part number:
F77F-10884-AB (SW-5174)

Passenger side sensor part number:
F5AF-12A648-AB (DY-1144)

(I was wrong in my post earlier today regarding the passenger side sensor part number.)


These are the Motorcraft part numbers I ordered and installed.

[Motorhead350]

Ford has both flat ones. You need a cone. Like I said, last year I had one hell of a time finding the cone. You need the cone, 2 flats will NOT work, even if Ford says so, they are dead wrong. That's why you stil have this issue.

[tbone]

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MjI1WDMwMA==/z/s2UAAOxynRRSN12f/$(KGrHqJ,!rYFI0lEVfBLBSN12e)mZ w~~60_35.JPG

Found this DY-1144 on ebay. Why is the cone shape so important?

The one I bought from Rock Auto came in Motorcrafts plastic bag marked with the correct part number.

[Motorhead350]

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MjI1WDMwMA==/z/s2UAAOxynRRSN12f/$(KGrHqJ,!rYFI0lEVfBLBSN12e)mZ w~~60_35.JPG

Found this DY-1144 on ebay. Why is the cone shape so important?

The one I bought from Rock Auto came in Motorcrafts plastic bag marked with the correct part number.

Someone can explain this better than I, but the cone measures differently I believe. I had this exact problem last year. If I am wrong on the cone, I will buy you lunch next time we meet up.

[tbone]

For $11.95 shipped I'll give it a shot. Thanks.

[justbob]

Someone can explain this better than I, but the cone measures differently I believe. I had this exact problem last year. If I am wrong on the cone, I will buy you lunch next time we meet up.


Correct. IIRC the PCM (passenger) see's a 5V reference, gauge (driver) see's 12V.

Don't think for a second Rock Auto knows what they are selling. Get in your car and drive to the dealer and tell me what you see on THEIR computer for the sensor. Or many parts for that matter..

Hint: you'll see a 2V!

Builder Of Badassery

[Motorhead350]

For $11.95 shipped I'll give it a shot. Thanks.

Good stuff. Keep us posted.

[Motorhead350]

Correct. IIRC the PCM (passenger) see's a 5V reference, gauge (driver) see's 12V.

Don't think for a second Rock Auto knows what they are selling. Get in your car and drive to the dealer and tell me what you see on THEIR computer for the sensor. Or many parts for that matter..

Hint: you'll see a 2V!

Builder Of Badassery

The dealer will show two flat ends and not the cone. I went though this last year with nearly all of the board being useless.

If Tommy bought the cone, he should be in good shape.

[justbob]

The dealer will show two flat ends and not the cone. I went though this last year with nearly all of the board being useless.



If Tommy bought the cone, he should be in good shape.


Read my last sentence. :)


Builder Of Badassery

[tbone]

Correct. IIRC the PCM (passenger) see's a 5V reference, gauge (driver) see's 12V.

Don't think for a second Rock Auto knows what they are selling. Get in your car and drive to the dealer and tell me what you see on THEIR computer for the sensor. Or many parts for that matter..

Hint: you'll see a 2V!

Builder Of Badassery

It sounds like FORD doesn't know what they are selling since it was a sealed bag with MOTORCRAFTS logo and part number, etc.

Thanks for the info. I hope this works.

[tbone]

http://www.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imageurl=http%3A% 2F%2Fwww.rockauto.com%2Finfo%2 FMotorcraft%2F3F1Z12A648A-FRO.jpg&imagekey=2312990-0&width=500

This is what the Rock Auto DY-1144 part looks like.

http://www.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imageurl=http%3A% 2F%2Fwww.rockauto.com%2Finfo%2 FMotorcraft%2FSW5174-FRO.jpg&imagekey=386765-0&width=500

SW-5174

[Motorhead350]

You need the cone or nothing will change. I could never find the part. Not even in yards. I had mine sent back. What was the source when you posted what you needed? The cone picture.

[tbone]

Ebay Dom.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-OEM-Ford-TEMPERATURE-SENSOR-F5AF12A648AB-F5AF-12A648-AB-F5AF12A648AA-DY-1144-/350876931375?pt=Motors_Car_Tru ck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51b1e5152f&vxp=mtr

The car sure runs better. Maybe it likes the standard tstat a lot better than the 180 degree one I installed a long time ago. It definitely heats up a lot faster.

[Ourobos]

The cylinder looks like a typical ford gauge sender, the 'cone's is what I've always called and ECT (engine coolant temperate sensor), for the ECU.

[JohnE]

You can test the ECT (or any coolant and air) temperature sensors with an ohm meter. The probe shape and length my vary, however they are all simple thermistors, with identical resistance to temperature properties.

http://www.napaechlin.com/upload/NAPAEchlin2/Documents/Tech%20Tip%20PDFs/Ford_Coolant&AirChargeTemp.pdf

http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs/repair_guide_content/en_us/images/0996b43f/80/20/29/f0/small/0996b43f802029f0.jpg

[Motorhead350]

Ebay Dom.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-OEM-Ford-TEMPERATURE-SENSOR-F5AF12A648AB-F5AF-12A648-AB-F5AF12A648AA-DY-1144-/350876931375?pt=Motors_Car_Tru ck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item51b1e5152f&vxp=mtr

The car sure runs better. Maybe it likes the standard tstat a lot better than the 180 degree one I installed a long time ago. It definitely heats up a lot faster.

Has your problem been solved sense this install of the cone sensor?

[tbone]

I don't have it yet. It runs better with what I installed as described earlier.