Engine Rebuild Progress.....

[Marauderjack]

Steve Shrader just sent me some photos of his progress......BEAUTIFUL parts...too bad they are not visible in ACTION!!:eek::shake:;)

Stay tuned!!:beer:

[jdando]

Looking good!

:snowman:

[justbob]

Ooooohhhh purty!


Builder Of Badassery

[Zack]

Now tell him to send those pistons out to be coated on the top and sides.

It is absolutely foolish to build a boosted engine without coating.
FOOLISH!

[Marauderjack]

You tell him.....he's built hundreds and I shall not complain!!:shake:

Why is it FOOLISH??:confused:

[Zack]

Coating helps combat detonation quite well.

For the cost of coating, it's very worth it.
Your engine though, I'm just making a great suggestion

[burt ragio]

What do they coat them with ?
How long does the coating last ?
How does the coating help prevent detenation ?

[lji372]

Coating helps combat detonation quite well.

For the cost of coating, it's very worth it.
Your engine though, I'm just making a great suggestion

What coating/plating?

[camelgrundle]

It's a coating of chuck Norris's tears. Jk he has never cried!

[Jeronimojc]

Here is a related thread. http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=32790 from Loco1234
40580

Edit: I should have indicated OLD thread.


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[Loco1234]

LOL I was just reading this thread & was thinking about linking my old thread... but yah beat me to it.. LOL

I am now up to 700-800HP with 21PSI & these piston's work wonderfully not to mention the over sized air-water inter-cooler & JT-trim
Prior to coatings I had my entire rotating assembly full balanced blueprinted...
These Motor done right ARE awesome...

[MOTOWN]

LOL I was just reading this thread & was thinking about linking my old thread... but yah beat me to it.. LOL

I am now up to 700-800HP with 21PSI & these piston's work wonderfully not to mention the over sized air-water inter-cooler & JT-trim
Prior to coatings I had my entire rotating assembly full balanced blueprinted...
These Motor done right ARE awesome...

Sounds like you have a mean machine! would love to see some pics of it.

[chief455]

Waiting to read where this coating process can be performed?

[MOTOWN]

Waiting to read where this coating process can be performed?

Jet Hot , and a number of other thermal coating companies offer this service , personally i wouldn't bother unless i bought them already coated from the manufacture , as having them coated after the sale will certainly void any warranty from who ever made the pistons.

[Jeronimojc]

LOL I was just reading this thread & was thinking about linking my old thread... but yah beat me to it.. LOL

I am now up to 700-800HP with 21PSI & these piston's work wonderfully not to mention the over sized air-water inter-cooler & JT-trim
Prior to coatings I had my entire rotating assembly full balanced blueprinted...
These Motor done right ARE awesome...


Yeah, I made mental note of your coated pistons. I always liked the idea.
Sounds like you adjusted timing some more, but haven't gotten to the dyno yet. Is this the case?


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[Marauderjack]

I looked it ups and found lots of information......this tells more or less what to expect: http://www.techlinecoatings.com/articles/Coating_Pistons_Article.htm

I asked my friend David on FordMuscle.com and got this from him:

Hey Jack - Maybe. Coatings (in themselves) do not inherently protect against det. They can increase HP by reducing heat transfer into the parts, retaining the heat in the chamber and out the exhaust, increasing power by avoiding some heat loss. However, this actually slightly increases octane requirements, much like the difference between iron and aluminum heads, where aluminum absorbs heat easier to reduce chamber heat and therefore requiring lower octane (or allowing more timing or boost).

However, on the flip-side, coatings can help in reducing accumulated heat on long power pulls that could contribute to det. or pre-ignition. This is especially true of the exhaust valves, in engines that run retarded timing due to octane limitations, though coating all of the parts can reduce general accumulated chamber temps and resulting octane requirements.

So, the answer is maybe. If your setup can run full timing at full boost with coatings, then do it to protect against accumulated heat, especially if you do longer power runs like road racing, endurance competition, long highway pulls, or back-to-back runs at the strip. If your power pulls are short (like drag runs), where there is no excessive general heat accumulation without a cool-down, then coatings are likely not cost effective. In-between is coating some parts like the valves, that give the greatest benefits, without substantial negatives.

You can see how coating the piston tops might reduce the ring heating you saw in your engine, possibly reducing the resulting damage. You can do much the same by polishing your piston tops. However, if your det. was avoided, or your gaps were bigger, the issue would have been avoided as well. If used this way, coatings are a crutch, and are being mis-used to avoid the real issues.

I guess I'm not promoting coatings mostly for the reason that they are usually a band-aid to the real issue - building and tuning to your octane level to avoid det. in the first place. If you're already doing that, and how you use it justifies it, then be happy and use coatings for their best purpose.

David

Hey Zack.....what is the "thickness" of these coatings??:confused:

[Zack]

It is very very thin.
About .0015

[burt ragio]

Why does a smaller plug gap reduce detonation ?

[Marauderjack]

Why does a smaller plug gap reduce detonation ?

???:confused:???

[RF Overlord]

I believe he was talking about ring gaps and he meant if they had been larger it would have prevented the ring land damage.

[Marauderjack]

I believe he was talking about ring gaps and he meant if they had been larger it would have prevented the ring land damage.

^^^Exactly!!:(

On 2 of my pistons the top rings "End Butted" on the upstroke breaking the 2nd ring land but the killer was #7's top ring "End Butted" and seized in the cylinder breaking the top ring land which in turn beat the plug gap closed.....UGH!!:bigcry:

[Marauderjack]

Cranks is in........Pistons and Rods will be installed today!!:beer:

[Seneca]

Awesome you'll be on the road again in no time!

[Marauderjack]

Awesome you'll be on the road again in no time!

Cannot wait Seneca......I've really missed "My Girl"!!:(

Can't wait to see what your car will do when ya get the "Twins" up and running!!;)

BEAUTIFUL work so far!!:beer:

[Marauderjack]

Cam Covers and Short Block.....NICE!!:bows::beer::D

[BigM460]

Bet your getting really anxious!:burn:

[Marauderjack]

Bet your getting really anxious!:burn:

Yes and.......PATIENCE is not one of my virtues!!:shake::cool:

[BigM460]

Yes and.......PATIENCE is not one of my virtues!!:shake::cool:

Will be time to crank up the boost! :D:burnout:

[Marauderjack]

Heads are on and "Cooling Mod" installed!!:beer::bows:

Steve really likes the precision of the "Cooling Mod" components...it is purty.....too bad it's hidden!!:(

[MOTOWN]

Heads are on and "Cooling Mod" installed!!:beer::bows:

Steve really likes the precision of the "Cooling Mod" components...it is purty.....too bad it's hidden!!:(

Best mod you can make #7&8 valves and seats says thank you!:cool:

[Shornaday]

All looking really good, what did you do to get the cam covers looking so nice?

[Marauderjack]

All looking really good, what did you do to get the cam covers looking so nice?

Hi-Temp Silver spray paint according to Steve!!:beer:

BTW......the coil covers are the last 2 in existence from JLT....I think they just snap over the OEM ones!!:confused:

[RacerX]

Those pistons are originally for B heads. They will work fine though. I wonder what it does for quench though?

B head combustion chamber:

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/gallery/data/500/P4070542.jpg

C heads:

http://image.mustangandfords.com/f/38307570+w620+re0/m5lp-0408-03-o%2bmodular-bore-and-stroker-kits%2bfour-valve-cylinder-head-porting.jpg

[Marauderjack]

Those pistons are originally for B heads. They will work fine though. I wonder what it does for quench though?

B head combustion chamber:

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/gallery/data/500/P4070542.jpg

C heads:

http://image.mustangandfords.com/f/38307570+w620+re0/m5lp-0408-03-o%2bmodular-bore-and-stroker-kits%2bfour-valve-cylinder-head-porting.jpg

I have no clue but Steve selected the DSS pistons over the Manley's for better thermal characteristics.......no "Piston Slap" on cold start-ups!! These will also give us close to 10:1 CR where the Manley's would have been around 9.45:1??:confused:

Steve has built hundreds of these motors and we have not discussed "B" or "C" heads so I have to assume he knows what he's doing!!:cool:

[Marauderjack]

Getting closer......engine back together!!:beer:

Hopefully he will get it on the dyno next week.......stay tuned!!:D

[cer0413]

Getting closer......engine back together!!:beer:

Hopefully he will get it on the dyno next week.......stay tuned!!:D
500+ I see there. <3<3<3

[Zack]

Stock manifolds? Why??????

[Marauderjack]

Why not????:confused:

[Jeronimojc]

Getting there for sure. I will also end up using stock manifolds in my project. They are small for sure and constitute some restriction (higher boost and no power gan) at high HP levels. I may go with Cobra shorties down the road.


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[Marauderjack]

Getting there for sure. I will also end up using stock manifolds in my project. They are small for sure and constitute some restriction (higher boost and no power gan) at high HP levels. I may go with Cobra shorties down the road.


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I looked at the Cobra "shorties" and didn't like the passenger side oval opening...plus I think they crack a lot....correct me here if I'm wrong??:cool:

The stock exhaust manifolds worked fine for me.....street car that was SURPRISINGLY FAST!!:burnout:

Hoping it will be fine......going with SCT tuning and dumping the Diablo tune!!:beer:

[lifespeed]

I looked at the Cobra "shorties" and didn't like the passenger side oval opening...plus I think they crack a lot....correct me here if I'm wrong??:cool:

I have read several reports of shorty headers cracking. My guess is the short tubes concentrate thermal expansion/contraction stresses at the welds. Long tubes would be much less affected as there is a great distance between collector and cylinder head flange welds.

This is a classic high-temperature exhaust problem. Turbocharger wastegate bypass pipes are subject to the same issue. An Inconel 625 bellow is used to address the problem in that application.

High flow exhaust is a great way to add power. No extra fuel required, efficiency is better all around. If I weren't in Kalifornia I would already have long tube headers on my car :(

[MOTOWN]

Getting there for sure. I will also end up using stock manifolds in my project. They are small for sure and constitute some restriction (higher boost and no power gan) at high HP levels. I may go with Cobra shorties down the road.


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Stock exhaust manifolds and 600 to wheels:confused: not going to happen! that thing would knock and ping its self to death!

[Jeronimojc]

I hear you. We'll let the power be whatever it is. Don't want to blow up the engine. The mods will continue later. Lol


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[BigM460]

I got 550.86rwhp through the manifolds. No retune with the headers yet, but wow! Think it will be worth it!

[Jeronimojc]

551 is a pretty good number in my book. How much boost?


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[BigM460]

551 is a pretty good number in my book. How much boost?


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18-19psi, and 17* of timing, no air filter intake tube. Only 513.39hp with the intake tube.

[chief455]

18-19psi, and 17* of timing, no air filter intake tube. Only 513.39hp with the intake tube.
~40 hp gain from no intake tube :eek: hmmmmm

[BigM460]

~40 hp gain from no intake tube :eek: hmmmmm

Crazy huh? Couldn't believe it.
Bought a 4" bellmouth to try the next time on the dyno! Ebay $16 bucks from Hong Kong!:D

[Jeronimojc]

Crazy huh? Couldn't believe it.

Bought a 4" bellmouth to try the next time on the dyno! Ebay $16 bucks from Hong Kong!:D


Got any pics?

What is interesting is intake flow is making this much of a difference regardless of no changes to exhaust. I believe exhaust makes a big difference at higher HP.


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[BigM460]

Got any pics?

What is interesting is intake flow is making this much of a difference regardless of no changes to exhaust. I believe exhaust makes a big difference at higher HP.


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Don't know any hard numbers of this, but seat of the pants is better. Won't know anyway as the next trip to the dyno is with the headers and 3" pipes. New posted numbers when it happens will be with the bellmouth I mentioned.
And because I know it's coming, IAT showed no changes drawing air from this location.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/360610623235?nav=SEARCH

if it works a link to the bellmouth.

[sailsmen]

I would check that the filter has enough area to meet the amount of air you need.

[BigM460]

I would check that the filter has enough area to meet the amount of air you need.

Do tell? Hot rodder not an engineer.:bows:

[sailsmen]

Heres a good article;
http://www.onallcylinders.com/2013/11/27/match-air-filter-size-engine/

Hard to tell looking at your photo, but it looks a little undersized to me.


127.2348 Current Filter Area
87.6481597 Min FA Required

I used 20,839 per K&N vs the 25,500 in this article.

[BigM460]

Heres a good article;
http://www.onallcylinders.com/2013/11/27/match-air-filter-size-engine/

Hard to tell looking at your photo, but it looks a little undersized to me.


127.2348 Current Filter Area
87.6481597 Min FA Required

I used 20,839 per K&N vs the 25,500 in this article.

If I did the calculations correct, the height is good by an inch.
Has a 5" flange, 6.5" diameter at bottom and is just over 5" tall filter area. Guess the cone shape reduces flow a bit over it being the same diameter at the top, so...... close on size, but.....
probably not ideal, but it comes off to get dyno numbers or at the track.
Thoughts?

[Triple Threat]

Don't know any hard numbers of this, but seat of the pants is better. Won't know anyway as the next trip to the dyno is with the headers and 3" pipes. New posted numbers when it happens will be with the bellmouth I mentioned.
And because I know it's coming, IAT showed no changes drawing air from this location.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/360610623235?nav=SEARCH

if it works a link to the bellmouth.

Hard numbers are that when I increased the headers from 1 5/8 to 2 in I picked up 50 RWHP.

[Zack]

I would check that the filter has enough area to meet the amount of air you need.

Jesus *****balls man. How the f is he gonna run a bigger filter than that? Get real

[chief455]

Hard numbers are that when I increased the headers from 1 5/8 to 2 in I picked up 50 RWHP.

your psycho race engine may respond to the large primaries more than BigM460's or others - but I'd wager long tube headers on any of these engines, when tuned, will yield an increase over manifolds.

[sailsmen]

Jesus *****balls man. How the f is he gonna run a bigger filter than that? Get real

By buying and installing a filter with more area assuming it is required.

[MOTOWN]

your psycho race engine may respond to the large primaries more than BigM460's or others - but I'd wager long tube headers on any of these engines, when tuned, will yield an increase over manifolds.

I would love a set of 2" primary headers! 1 5/8" does have its limitations.

[BigM460]

I would love a set of 2" primary headers! 1 5/8" does have its limitations.

Would be cool if Stainless Works offered some 1.75 tubes like on the 5.4 engines.

[chief455]

I would love a set of 2" primary headers! 1 5/8" does have its limitations.
Moving mucho air :D

Would be cool if Stainless Works offered some 1.75 tubes like on the 5.4 engines.
In my previous life (pushrods) 474 - 514 cubic inch motors would be right at 1 3/4" to make torque. 2" to 2 1/8" primaries would be top end only, race headers. Seen the bigger primaries lose power on the dyno.
I've run stepped 1 7/8" into 2" primary to a 4" collector making best tq and hp across the power band. With .+700" lift cams, big cubes moving lots of air, (800 hp) still liked some restriction out of the exhaust chamber to build / keep velocity.
I know, I know - pushrods :rolleyes:

[Marauderjack]

Steve found the pieces of the #7 Ring Land....guess where they were!!??:eek:

[jwibbity]

Steve found the pieces of the #7 Ring Land....guess where they were!!??:eek:

headers?!?!

[jdando]

Catalytic converter? Cross pipe?

[Zack]

Steve found the pieces of the #7 Ring Land....guess where they were!!??:eek:

Intake manifold most likely.

[Marauderjack]

Intake manifold most likely.

Ding....Ding....Ding......we have a WINNER!!:beer:

Exactly, and if ya think about it......high intake vacuum with the throttle blades closed would suck 'em that direction.......I was shocked initially when I heard it!!:eek:

Zack, ole boy, ya know your stuff!!:bows:

Now, where do you want me to mail your ICE CREAM SAMMICH??:D

[fastblackmerc]

Intake manifold most likely.

I vote for intake too.

[Loco1234]

I use a K&N conical style filter.

However they also make a few larger conical "Inverted" or "X-stream" models that will allow for more airflow..

This is model I use:
http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?prod=RD-1460


However like I mentioned above... they also make these styles.. Which allow for airflow thru the top... Instead of a solid top it is also filter material weather its flat or inverted...
http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?prod=RX-4730XD
or
http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?prod=RR-3003

These are not sized but I listed as examples...

[Jeronimojc]

I like the reversed or inverted ones (second link). My preference is the look of a smaller filter rather than a larger one, but performance trumps looks.

[Marauderjack]

Engine is back in the car and he is hooking everything back up today as well as re-installing the ProCharger!!:beer:

He hopes to have it on the dyno tomorrow??:up:

Stay tuned....literally!!:D

[justbob]

Awesome Jack. Have you already upgraded to a D-1? If not, good time to turn up the wick...!


Builder Of Badassery

[BigM460]

Engine is back in the car and he is hooking everything back up today as well as re-installing the ProCharger!!:beer:

He hopes to have it on the dyno tomorrow??:up:

Stay tuned....literally!!:D

:up::up::up::up::up::woohoo: :woohoo:

[Marauderjack]

Awesome Jack. Have you already upgraded to a D-1? If not, good time to turn up the wick...!


Builder Of Badassery

I am gonna talk to ProCharger first....I'd like one that DOESN'T LEAK!!:mad2:

I have had 2 rebuilds and one NEW P1SC head and ALL leak about 1/2 ounce in 5K miles.....no big deal but UGLY & MESSY!!:argue:

I'll have to re-tune with a D-1 so I'll just see how the new engine behaves with the P1SC first Bob!!??:beer:

[Marauderjack]

Engine back in and almost ready for Dyno tuning!!:beer::D

[Jeronimojc]

Awesome! Looking forward to the results.


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[BigM460]

Please ask him to pull the air intake tube for one last pull after tuned! Wonder what your restriction might be? :D

Never mind, just noticed that your mass air is at the filter.

[Zack]

Good luck!