Gasoline Octane warning to all.

[adrian36]

I have been using 93 Octane rated gas which I get at a COSTCO near my home. Recently I have noticed that my car was making a gargling sound and pinging under load--- lets say, when you accelerate between 20-30MPH. Also, when you would floor it of the line or when you were about 15 MPH and floored it the sound would manifest itself. I thought the timing was off. I contacted Dennis R. (he flashed my comp on the car) he was very sincere and offered to take a look at it -- Thanks Dennis but I believe the problem may not be the CPU. I ran the car until it was short a 1/4 tank. I went to HESS pumped up about 7.5 gallons and sped off. After about 5 miles or so the car was different, even the exhaust noise was smoother. The pinging was still there but much less and not last as long when you accelerated. I also added a bottle of Techron fuel injection cleaner. Also a buddy of mine gave me 1/2 gallon of VP racing fuel. I refilled today with another 8 gallons of HESS. I still have about 5 gallons or so of that supposedly 93 Octane gas from COSTCO still in the tank. The car is much, much better. The MM is very sensitive to octane ratings. I wonder if Costco just made an honest mistake. I hate to bad mouth anybody, but I know my car. Just be careful people

[woaface]

I never buy really expensive gas, but I never buy the cheap crap either...can't be tempted by the $1.70 for Premium stuff. I've noticed it doesn't last as long also...not a huge difference but a difference.

[Marauderman]

I never buy really expensive gas, but I never buy the cheap crap either...can't be tempted by the $1.70 for Premium stuff. I've noticed it doesn't last as long also...not a huge difference but a difference.
James- with our engines--there is no choice but premium if you want to take care of it---and yes--they( MM engines ) are sensitive to the rating they get---it's not worth it to put in lower octane ......Tom

[BillyGman]

I always use 93 octane mobil gas. I've done that when my MM was N/A, and now that it's S/Ced, I definately will continue to do that. I've never had a problem w/their gas.

[Amsoil_Dealer]

Even the two valve Crown Vics are sensitive to minor Octane changes. I also had Dennis reflash my ECU and it helped a lot. I do occasionally run 87 (if I am merely running 70-75 down the highway) but the car runs a whole lot better on 93.

Don

[Butch]

I used to work for a gasonline distribution company as an electronics repairman.....

It is not unusual for the wrong grade of gas to be dropped into the premium tank, by "accident". Usually, to have it done, the gas station will order too much gas for their 87 or 89 octane tanks, then when the driver notices that it all won't fit into the tank, they will just drop the rest of the order into the premium tank.

Yes, it's illegal, but there is no field test for verifying octane rating, and the chance of getting caught is VERY slim! If records show that the wrong grade was dropped in a tank, the owner just has to say "whoops!" and they just get told to try and make sure it doesn't happen again.

It is a common practice, mainly with the mom & pop type gas stations, because they usually order their gas from the distributor with the lowest prices, plus the distributor who is willing to drop the extra gas in the wrong tank. I've seen it done a few times while working on the electronics in the gas pumps.

Doesn't usually happen at the larger, name brand stations such as Exxon or BP, due to checks and balances that happen to make sure they are not cheating the customers, which would give them a bad name with the customers.


Also....Costco gas has a LOT of sulfur added to it, which is what helps keep the gas price lower. Sulfur doesn't cost very much, and makes a great filler to bring the price down to pass on to the customers, BUT sulfur is not good for a lot of engines, and the cat convertors. Gate fuel is the same way. May be cheap, but I wouldn't run it unless I was on 'E'.

Just my 2 cents......

[Bluerauder]

I have been using 93 Octane rated gas which I get at a COSTCO near my home. Recently I have noticed that my car was making a gargling sound and pinging under load--- lets say, when you accelerate between 20-30MPH "snip, snip" Just be careful people

I use only 93 Octane from Exxon or Mobil -- but I guess the same truck now delivers both. I try to stay away from the off-brands because you may not know the true source. Some off- brand independents are able to keep prices low by taking the bottom scraps from tanks when they periodically "empty" their tanks. This stuff has lots of sediment in it and it can be mixed with numerous brands. Can't say for a fact that CostCo does this; but such a practice does go on in those One Off stations.

It might be advertized as 93; but you really have no idea what you are getting. And, it could be loaded with sediment. If you can afford ground beef --- don't use hamburger helper --- unless, of course, you like the taste and performance.

[SergntMac]

Damnit...Another octane thingy. Where's TooManyFords when ya need him...

[woaface]

Two valve crown vic...yeah that's what I've got. I'm always pumped up on 93 too. But like I said, I won't buy the cheap stuff, it seems to disappear too quick, just a waste of money...I'll drive to the next station if I can make it.

[MarauderMark]

Ever since i bought my mm i've only used 94 from sunoco.never had any problems.and when i go s/c i will continue to use it as well.unless dr tells me not too.

[Dan]

93 octance form Mobil as often as possible.

But I wonder if it would be a way to save money by going with a less octance and a can of boost with each tank.

Best,

Dan

[TooManyFords]

Damnit...Another octane thingy. Where's TooManyFords when ya need him...

Lurking... K?

[SergntMac]

Smart choice of words, John, and so may to pick from...

[MapleLeafMerc]

Adrian- I don't think gas for our Marauders should be a low-price decision. :cool4: I like Sunoco because it's 94, the highest I can find, and I trust their brand. Their car washes are pretty good, too. Blender pumps, anyone?

[martyo]

I like Sunoco because it's 94, the highest I can find, and I trust their brand.

I agree and like Sunoco becuase of the 94 Octane. As of late though Sunoco has only had 93 and a sign that says "Same Quality Fuel." Kinda of sucks if you ask me....

[SergntMac]

Well, toomanyfords decided to not reply here with anything of substance, but he did post something helpful in another thread here, so, I thought I'd bring that over for y'all. It's got to do with this octane thingy, after you step over the wisecracks...

I'd love to Mac, but I didn't write the race fuel program for the SCT tuner so I don't know how it is setup. But, I have a good idea so I'll try to take this slow for ya, Mac...

The higher the octane means the fuel burns SLOWER to prevent things like detonation, pre-ignition, knock and ping. I can only -assume- that the 100 octane program in the tuner uses an advanced ignition timing curve that requires the fuel to burn slower to prevent the above conditions.

Since a tuner cannot change the compression ratio (another big reason to use higher octane), here's what I recommend:

1. Put the 100 octane gas in at least one full tank BEFORE switching to the new racing program. You should make sure that all the pre-100 octane gas is gone or you run the risk of deadly detonation and ping. Remember, your tank holds a gallon or two even when the "your empty" light is lit.

2. Switch to the new program.

3. Immediately switch back to the original program after racing and BEFORE the 100 octane is gone. John
Maybe John's reply isn't right on focus with us here, but he's explaining something about octane, and how it affects our MMs, and I thought that would be valuable to y'all. Advice about the burn, and burn off, and all. If not, nevermind. I thought John had the answer.

I get my gasoline at Citgo and I pay for my octane. I'd better be getting that too. Moreover, I think it's a shame that the "octane boosters" we get pitched on, are not what they claim to be.

Seems like getting the right octane is like getting sex after marriage. Nothing is what we expect it to be, and we're still chasing after the advertiser wanting more.

(shrug) Oh well...

[TripleTransAm]

To add to the frustration, it seems that a certain 'X' octane from one manufacturer might not perform the same way as 'X' octane from another. Also, much to my frustration, the same octane grade of fuel from the same manufacturer but from DIFFERENT stations (!) can behave differently! Hence, I have my favorite station and try to stick with it (or 'had', as they recently downgraded to 91 octane, and I can occasionally hear the big girl ping now and again)

[TAF]

Way to take the "high-road" John. :up:

I'm getting kinda tired of the pompous, arrogant, napoleonic, multi-paragraph, blow-hard stuff myself, as well. And a response from you pointing out any further flaws in ones "octane theology" that you'd need to address would have certainly invited one.

[Butch]

MapleLeafMerc,

Blender Pumps.....Boy, those things make it WAY to easy to cheat customers! When I worked for the fuel company, we were testing these units. Since I worked in the "computer" department for the company, I was involved in the setup of making these pumps work with our automated credit card systems. 90% of our stations were "unattended", where there was nobody to pay, and you had to use a credit card, or a pre-pay card that you would get from our main office.

Anyway, we were playing with the blender pump and found that you could actually alter the amount of blend between grades, while the person was pumping. It would make a VERY easy way to cheat people, if the company wanted to. Each pump had its own mechanical meter, but that is not what the state tests when checking the amount of fuel being delivered. The state only test to see that when the display shows 5 gallons, that the customer actually gets 5 gallons. They didn't check to see that it was of the proper grade or anything.

We didn't cheat anyone with our computer programs, but I could tell you about 5 different ways to cheat the customer, but at the same time, I could tell you 2 different ways to cheat our computer program and get free gas. Basically, we would test ways that we COULD cheat the customer, so that we could put checks in to make sure that some other programmer didn't come in behind us and stick it to the customer.

Anyway, blender pumps were a great new item for us, and we started using them extensively, but it just opened up new cheat options for the gas companies, if they wanted them.

[Marauderman]

Way to take the "high-road" John. :up:

I'm getting kinda tired of the pompous, arrogant, napoleonic, multi-paragraph, blow-hard stuff myself, as well. And a response from you pointing out any further flaws in ones "octane theology" that you'd need to address would have certainly invited one.
I'm sure glad you were clear about that!!!even though I'm not sure what the hell your saying............Tom

[Fourth Horseman]

I've been feeding mine Chevron 91 octane premium since it was new. Never a ping and it runs great. If they'd just include a Honda-repellant additive, I'd be set. :D

[junehhan]

My engine seems to exhibit a short ping every now and then when climbing a hill, but today it was pinging pretty bad. I noticed that it happened right after I filled up as well. The gas needle was on the E today when I left church and had to fill up at a Marathon station in a really bad part of town.

The gas you are purchasing, may not be the gas you are getting depending on which region you live. In some area's, a particular branded gas station is only required to carry that particular brand of gas a certain percentage of the time. There is a small Shell gas station right by where my father has a shop, and i've seen BP tanker trucks filling up the tanks there sometimes early in the morning. There is a Chevron station nearby my house that actually bids on the cheapest gas they can possibly get. When I questioned the owner, he said that he just bids on the cheapest gas he can find. I usually only trust Shell 93 octane these days from the same location, or BP/Amoco 93 octane if that Shell station is full.

[Lidio]

This is a very sensitive topic with me. As a tuner who tries to find the power that the enthusiast want but yet attempt to instill reliability as well…. Available octane or lack there of, is the number one killer of most aggressive engine combos. Many, many customers of mine including myself… quest for the most possible power with available unleaded pump fuels. Their really isn’t a problem with this if when you pull up to the pump and put in Amoco 93, if your really getting Amoco 93 as an example. Here in Michigan (other states as well) we have to deal with what’s called winter blend fuels. This is where they blend the fuel differently so that it will start better in bitter, colder temps. I’m no chemist by any means but when the fuel is mixed to start better or burn faster you’ve effectively lowered its octane in some way or another. If it isn’t lowering the octane… what ever it is they do certainly makes the winter junk ping more then the summer stuff does in this part of town.

This winter blend fuel is so shi&&ty most of the time that when I tune a 10:1 compression 32V Cobra motor w/ boost or even a Marauder for the mater with boost, I have to be extra conservative (during the winter fuel tune) and usually ask the customer to return if he can to go over the tune and even become more aggressive with the spark when the spring/summer time comes. I’ve lost track of how often and how easily a tune in the summer will be dead on and then come back in the winter and be spark knocking all over the place. This is one of the reasons my tunes are typically so conservative… to better accommodate what can happen in different parts of the US. Although I’m learning that not only is California limited to only 91 octane for most part… it’s a poor 91 octane too.

I really wish that in this day and age that the fuel company’s would step up and make something along the lines of true 96-97 octanes. And truly control what’s going on with it better when it actually makes it to the pumps for general consumption. I think there’s a market place for an unleaded fuel of this nature even if its price is kept in perspective, like maybe .15 - .35 cents more per gallon. I’m not rich, but I’m a serious enthusiast that would gladly pay that for a guaranteed better fuel with some real octane. This is why I fawn over the customers who are willing to run the 100 unleaded and 110 leaded fuels at my shop when they have us build up a serious combo of some kind. The sold separately high octane race fuels are always, consistently high quality gas every time. So your tune can be more aggressive and still be reliable all the time. Never a worry about grabbing the 93 pump and getting 86 etc.


Thanks

[SergntMac]

I'm getting kinda tired of the pompous, arrogant, napoleonic, multi-paragraph, blow-hard stuff myself, as well. And a response from you pointing out any further flaws in ones "octane theology" that you'd need to address would have certainly invited one.
I've got a sudden and serious knock issue right now, and I'm looking to rule out octane if I can. This, and other octane threads are important to me, and what John had to say about it in another thread, what to do about it, if anything can be done at all, is helpful. Since John didn't reply here, I brought his 411 over hoping he would expand on it, nothing more.

I am disappointed that we have taken this octane issue and split it up between several threads. I don't get this high science, and correct answers are slipping through the cracks.

If my posts distract you todd, there's an ignore button at your disposal. You have my number, don't derail this discussion with personal commentary.

Kudos to Lidio for adding his .02c, best we stick with the advice of real tuners anyway. Let's keep this thread on track, K?

[martyo]

The sold separately high octane race fuels are always, consistently high quality gas every time.

Lidio:

Care to render an opinion on whether it would make sense to order up a drum of, say, a VP Fuels high octane product? Does this stuff has shelf-satbility over an extended period of time? What is that extended period of time?

Thanks for any help you can give.

[TAF]

I've got a sudden and serious knock issue right now, and I'm looking to rule out octane if I can. This, and other octane threads are important to me, and what John had to say about it in another thread, what to do about it, if anything can be done at all, is helpful. Since John didn't reply here, I brought his 411 over hoping he would expand on it, nothing more.

I am disappointed that we have taken this octane issue and split it up between several threads. I don't get this high science, and correct answers are slipping through the cracks.

If my posts distract you todd, there's an ignore button at your disposal. You have my number, don't derail this discussion with personal commentary.

Kudos to Lidio for adding his .02c, best we stick with the advice of real tuners anyway. Let's keep this thread on track, K?
I've never spoken to, emailed or PM'd with John. But I, for one, was getting tired of your goading of him that was going on in the several threads on this issue in your typical smart a$$ way. Just because he set you straight on your wrong-thinking and you got embarrassed.

Do your post "distract me"? Naw...they are just for the most part pretty useless in my book.

[rookie1]

Play nice you guys.

Since this IS another fuel thread I feel obligated once again to point out that only Sunoco and Citgo Do Not import oil from the middle east a partial breakdown below:

Sunoco: Sources of Crude Oil, 2003
Refining and Supply
(Thousands of Barrels Daily)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crude Type:
West African Light 447.0
West Texas Intermediate and Oklahoma Sweet 152.9
Canadian 52.3
North Sea 34.3
South and Central American Light 4.6
"Lubes-Extracted" Gasoil/Naphtha Intermediate Feedstock 16.6

CITGO is a direct, wholly-owned subsidiary of PDV America, Inc., a wholly-owned subsidiary of PDV Holding, Inc. CITGO's ultimate parent is Petróleos de Venezuela, S.A. (PDVSA), the national oil company of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela and its largest supplier of crude oil.


I try to stick to these two because I don't like sending money to people who want to kill me.
just my .02

[SergntMac]

Awe c'mon, enough of the drama already. It was one thread, where I bowed to his expertise in tuning, which produced the post I brought over here. If John and I want to trade barbs (or not), that's our business, yes? Seems okay for you and Marty, right? Besides, if I was so "embarrassed," I could have edited his remarks here. If John wants spell things out slowly for me, think of all the others here who may benefit from his answers. That's all I am looking for here, answers to a problem. What ever is on your mind can be discussed off the board, K?

[SergntMac]

Lidio: Care to render an opinion on whether it would make sense to order up a drum of, say, a VP Fuels high octane product? Does this stuff has shelf-satbility over an extended period of time? What is that extended period of time? Thanks for any help you can give.
Mike Lopez is a professional drag racer/builder, some of you here have been to his shop, High Speed Performance, for our local dyno tunes. I put the questions to him, and he thinks that mixing a 50/50 solution for the drag strip is a good way to go. Mike sells 100 octane race gas for 5 bucks a gallon, because he has to pay that in 5000 gallon lots. But, he thinks it can be had cheaper from larger vendors, maybe 3.50 a gallon, from Speedway or Sunoco. Myself, I've seen 5 gallon cans at speed shops. No, it should not deteriorate any sooner that a can of gas you keep on the side for the lawnmower or snowblower. Long term storage of say, a 55 gallon drum is fine too, as long as it stays properly sealed.

Mike says...If you start out with a 1/4 tank of 93 pump gas, and add a 1/4 tank of 100 octane, you'll have a 1/2 tank of 96-97 gas on board. Mike says it won't "directly" enhance performance, like make a difference you can detect, but it will work to prevent detonation, the results of which are pulled timing and reduced spark. Therefore, less performance without it, and in this round about way, this mixed gas allows you to see your best performance from your MM, and that makes sense to me.

Mike added that even on a bone stock MM shouldn't have to be retuned for this occassional bonus in octane, however, he added that if you're going to race with this mix with any frequency or regularity, getting your MM tuned for this mix is beneficial.

BTW, IMHO, I would not suggest anyone race with less that a half tank of gas in the MM. It's been shown that the fuel supply system drops pressure in the higher RPMs, which will also cause pulled timing, but not pulled spark. Much more lethal to the engine than just detonation, or, so I have been told by the pros, and the MM specialists both. As usual, just my .02C on this.

[BillyGman]

This "pulled timing" & "pulled spark" terminology being used here has me confused. Don't both those terms mean the same thing(retarded timing)??? Another thing too, do you have to own a gasoline station to have a 55 gallon drum of race gas delivered to you? I didn't think it was legal for you to have a drum of gas delivered to your residence.

[SergntMac]

This "pulled timing" & "pulled spark" terminology being used here has me confused. Don't both those terms mean the same thing(retarded timing)??? Another thing too, do you have to own a gasoline station to have a 55 gallon drum of race gas delivered to you? I didn't think it was legal for you to have a drum of gas delivered to your residence.
I can't explain it any better than I have, Billy, I'm still a student in this programming stuff, and I am just repeating what's been explained to me. Feel free to correct me, no shortage of that here, eh?

I've seen the reprogramming process dozens of times, even watched it happen live while I drove my MM at high speeds. There are literally thousands of settings inside the PCM, mostly on the order of computer programming language itself, with "if this, then that" scripts. A "Jerry Tune" touches on many of them for the tailored dyno tune.

In some cases, the EEC will pull out agressive timing, adjust spark rates and close injectors together, in one decision to control the engine. This is likely the case when detonation is detected by the knock sensors, but only up to 4000 RPM. In other cases, like a low fuel pressure signal from the regulator in the trunk, it does not pull everything together, just the timing, leaving the fuel and spark on full. This is easy to correct, and not really a problem for the N/A cars to begin with. However, the faster the car builds power, the quicker these decision have to be made, so, it's highly critical on a S/C car.

The EEC is quite complex, also allowing for preferrences to be changed, and one I opted for was to leave my altenator turned on under WOT in hopes of addressing the fuel system situation. I think that this problem stems from low voltage under serious WOT, such as the 1/4 mile, and that causes the fuel pump to slow and lower fuel pressure. I think it's why you get a Kenny Bell boost-a-pump in your Trilogy kit, Billy, to control the voltage to the fuel pump under WOT. Same solution when you think about it. It may be a side affect of my Walbro 255 fuel pump too, we're working on it now.

Is storing 55 gallons of race gas in your garage legal? BTSOOM, I haven't a clue. Most likely, local fire codes would apply, but it's probably as safe as that one gallon can, if you're careful. Moreover, I was just at a local race parts store this weekend, where they had five 5 gallon cans on display, where you could pick one up and take it to the cashier. Safe? Lots of people think things are safe, and legal, until they are not...Go figure?

[martyo]

Do you have to own a gasoline station to have a 55 gallon drum of race gas delivered to you? I didn't think it was legal for you to have a drum of gas delivered to your residence.

I will be finding out and I will let you know.

[BillyGman]

Mac, thanks for the reply. I really didn't know the answer to that. It was an honest question. Marty, thanks to you also. I'll be waiting for your answer. I'm not really concerned w/the legality of storing the gas, but only the lagality of buying it, especially in 55 gallon drums. I don't know if you can purchase it in bigger quantities like that. If you can, then it's obviously legal.

BTW, MAC, I understand what you're saying about the S/Ced Marauders and WOT concerning the alternator, and possible voltage drop. Now that I think about it, maybe it's a good thing that the Trilogy installation requires the installer to replace the original alternator pulley and integrated clutch w/the standard pulley w/out a clutch that's included in the Trilogy S/Cer kit.

The reason for that is because the installation of the Trilogy S/Cer requires that the alternator be relocated w/the special bracket that's also included in the kit, but what I'm saying is that in light of what you've stated concerning voltage drop at WOT, perhaps having a standard pulley on the alternator which is supplied by Trilogy also offers a fringe benefit as well.

[TripleTransAm]

I think I'm understanding the reference to pulling spark and timing... by pulling timing, I understand it as retarding spark timing, and by pulling spark that would mean shutting down cylinders, as during traction control or rev limit situations?

[Lidio]

Martyo

I’m not 100% on the true shelf life of race fuels like the VP stuff but I assure you if stored properly it’s quite a while even once the barrel has been tapped. When I knew my fuel barrels would sit for a while on cement, I was told to store them on wood 2 X 4’s to elevate them from the pavement??

Any way most mild to wild N/A and blown motors can get by on a very popular Sunoco 100 octane unleaded fuel that’s not to hard to come by in some of the bigger area’s. It’s also known as Cam -2. This stuff has plenty of octane for typical street blower apps with up to 15-20psi of boost with proper tuning and intercooling. I’ve used it a ton on street Mustangs and I will only burn it when I begin to spray a 50 shot of NOS into my Trilogy blower set up very soon. This stuff is about 3.25 - 4.00 a gallon which can be a lot cheaper then a comparable VP fuel. Remember; too much octane on mild motors can also not be good. It’s simply not justified with low compression and can only be taken advantage of to some extent even with an aggressive tune and then gains become negligible. But with big compression, blower or NOS it’s a different animal!!

About the alternator stuff on the MM’s…. The alternator pulley on a stock MM is in no way a charging problem. It’s got a one way roller built into it so the belt doesn’t squeal under abrupt engine deceleration. That’s it.
On a trilogy blower kit for the MM’s, the alternator is mounted backwards and spins in the other direction. The one way free wheels in the other direction so a conventional non “one-way-roller” pulley is supplied in the kit.

Also the MM’s have the ability to turn off the alternator at WOT but this feature is not used from the factory. The SCT software I use along with other tuners allows us to enable this feature which I do on N/A Marauder tunes. But I do not with the blower apps because of how much more demanding the electronics are with a blower app. Like the fuel pump, ECU, ignition etc…


Thanks

[BillyGman]

Lidio, I'm glad to find that you do NOT use the WOT alternator cut-out function on the Trilogy chips, but I have to point out to you that from the factory, my Marauder DID have this feature enabled, and it remained enabled w/the Reinhart chip that I was using before I installed the Trilogy S/Cer kit on my car. How do I know this? Becauase whenever I would do a WOT blast late at night on the highway on the way home from work(midnight) I saw my headlights dim, and the voltmeter reading would immediately go from a healthy 14+ volts to a dismal 12 volts until I let off on the throttle.

Ofcourse I've noticed that the car doesn't do that anymore w/the Trilogy set-up and your chip, and quite frankly, I'm glad, because I never liked that feature anyway. And besides, w/all the power my car is putting to the wheels now, I'm not concerned about saving a mere 10-12 HP by the alternator pulley disengaging.

I thought it was the pulley, but perhaps it's simply your S/Cer chip that does away w/that feature. Either way, I'm glad it's disabled, and i want to keep it that way. i don't like my headlights diming at night time on the highway while I'm under WOT. It isn't the safest thing, and it makes the car appear to other drivers like there's something wrong w/the charging system when I get on it at night.

[TripleTransAm]

So what's the real deal here? On one hand we have a claim that the feature is OFF from the factory and another that it is on?

[merc406]

This fuel better get better for the summer, my 406 is running like a 4 banger.. :help:

[Jeff]

I've been feeding mine Chevron 91 octane premium since it was new. Never a ping and it runs great. If they'd just include a Honda-repellant additive, I'd be set. :D


Have you tried garlic? :lol:

[BillyGman]

So what's the real deal here? On one hand we have a claim that the feature is OFF from the factory and another that it is on?

Maybe we can get some other marauder owners to weigh in on this w/some input who have focused on their headlights at nigh time on a wide open highway while they hit full throttle, as well as glanced at their voltage meter to see if they noticed the same thing as I have or not. I'm not neccessarily trying to contend w/Lidio here, but simply trying to get to the bottom of this discrepency. Anyone can overlook something, be they expert, or novice.

So either way here, the motive doesn't neccessarily have to be to discredit anyone, be it me or Lidio..