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SIZEMOREMK
02-16-2015, 08:30 PM
Hello all, welcome to my looong build description!

I am doing a round of mods to my Marauder in conjunction with an engine build and was looking for a critique of my plans here.

Current plans:

All forged rotating assembly
Teksid block .020 over
9.5:1 CR
Paxton Novi 1200 with intercooler
8-rib swap
18% OD IW damper
3.33 SC pulley
Jerry's extra idler between Alt and PS pump
3.2 metco alternator pulley
valve job
stainless valves
aftermarket valvesprings
aftermarket intake cam .214 duration .470 lift
60lb injectors
Already has Ford GT Pump and KB Boost-A-Pump (I won’t be surprised if we end up having to do something about the single GT pump)
4.10 gears (already in the car)

Tranny refresh with a couple extra clutches via Jerry's bulletproof 4R70W article, and some other stuff found at clickclick racing. (Got a few AODs/4Rs under my belt with good results).

Factory Converter rebuilt and loosened up.



I am having the work done at a local speedshop this time, which that alone is something I'm not really very comfortable with as I have always done these things myself in previous cars/trucks. I just have too much going on and the extra cold weather this year helped the decision to just take it to the man.

At first I was going to haul it to MO's, but decided to try out a local guy that had a little bit of a good reputation with the cobra guys. This was no reflection on my previous dealings with MO's, I feel like he and Jeff went above and beyond with the work they did with my car last year. I really hope I don't regret choosing this guy over MO's, but I really liked the idea of having a local source for this stuff. I would not be surprised if the car ends up at MO's to be re-re-tuned anyways.


Shop says we should be able to reasonably target 15-17 PSI for daily, but not sure if the NOVI 1200 will get there, nor if that is a good idea for a daily driver with 9.5:1 compression. The shop says we can get an idea about where its going when he gets it on the dyno; then I also have the option of machining the 18% damper down to reduce boost if we need to. According to the vortech impeller speed calculator, the 18% with a 3.33 should spin the blower to 55,000 RPM, which is not too much over the 52,000 max that tons of people seem to ignore.

Most all of this came in a package deal, where the guy was moving to an LS in his cobra after a piston to valve clearance issue. The owner basically screwed up degreeing his cams and badness generically ensued. So valves were replaced, heads reworked, pistons/rings replaced and block machined. Also came with new timing set, billet oil pump and an aftermarket oilpan (if it will fit), the 8-rib swap, and 18% IW OD damper. Got all that for about $3600 (but did not include machining the block and engine assembly). Maybe not the best deal in the world, but not too bad. Would have gone with 8.5:1 or 9.0:1 CR but the deal already had new pistons at 9.5:1. I've been down to see all the parts and everything seems legit.

As for the cam, I had some reservations about the combo, being I could see no FI type cams with such specs available from the usual sources with that much intake and ex split. But the shop seemed confident about the cam selection, and says that this cam combo made close to 800 HP in a blown cobra, and close to 900 later after swapping to turbo, etc. Then when you think about it, this doesn't seem all that far off from swapping to 98 intake cams.

Previous details on the car:
The car has the Paxton Novi 1200 at 11-12 psi (they said 12 when it was dyno tuned),39 lb injectors, Ford GT pump, KB boost-a-pump.
Was 6-rib, with 3.25 pulley and stock damper never seemed to have belt slip that I could tell.
Tuned conservative for daily driver duties.
Stock converter, stock tranny, 4.10s.
2 widebands units; one an old PLX WB, and a 1 was a newer innovative unit. They both agreed with Jeff's wideband at Mo's when it was last tuned.
SCT iTSX, this is the Bluetooth SCT programmer that does about the same as an XCAL3, but allows scangauge type functionality through a phone or Ipad.

This car made 424HP, 380TQ at MO's last spring, but I have always felt that the car was not as strong as it should have been for this combo when seeing numbers for other similar combos. I was always suspicious of the lack of power down low in particular. Of course this was with a stock converter, but with the 4.10s, it dumbfounded me that this car would not break the tires loose from a dig (unless it is cold, like below 40* or so). I have really suspected that the rings may not have had the best seal, but never did a compression test either.


This round of mods was completely unplanned due to some burnt pistons in my MMR 600 with 9.5:1 (which was cast crank with forged rods/pistons).

My biggest concern is that I don’t know the root cause of the failure. My current assumption was that I had a leaky headgasket, created an air pocket, overheated and ruined my motor before I caught it. This was probably because I failed to check my gauges often enough during that morning commute, something I am usually pretty good about. When they tore the motor down, there was evidence of detonation on the bearings along with the burnt pistons. So what came first? Undetected detonation caused the HG failure? Tank of bad gas? Fuel pump going south?

I made a huge mistake in getting too comfortable with the car, as everything seemed to be just right as far as road manners and such. I started kinda ignoring the WB gauges, failed to monitor the fuel pump DC, etc... I hope to remain more vigilant in the future.

Anyways, didn’t mean to go on quite so much, just wanted to give some history.


In particular there are two potential options, which I would appreciate some inputs on:

I had another thread some may have seen from a few weeks ago about a potential intercooler re-build...

Basically, the shop is recommending a re-done intercooler setup since my ice-vex is on the smallish side, last year when I bought the car, Dennis Reinhart said the same thing.

So option #1: For another $700-800 he wants to fit up a bell intercooler core with custom tanks and re-work IC tubing for as big a unit as he can reasonably fit in there.


Option #2 is Methanol injection, which I already have the kit in hand. It’s a Snow kit driven by MAF voltage form a previous car. I just hooked it all up in the garage and tested it using an old PC, so I was able to hit the MAF input with 3volt and 5volt sources and it all seems to work well.

I do not want to tune the car such that a failed meth pump or solenoid runs lean or has too much timing and blows another motor; I don’t trust it that much.

I used this meth kit in this manner on my old Tbird SC (really crappy IC) and it seemed to do a good job of lowering IATs (as proven in datalogs). That was using windshield washer fluid... I can’t say it actually equated to X amount of power gains, but it didn’t run too rich and I would assume it pulled less timing as a result of lower IATs.

I believe I read where at least one other guy here uses his meth setup for this purpose and is tuned to not blow up if the meth fails.

The guy at the shop thinks the meth won’t really help if I don’t tune for its ability to advance timing with it. I don’t get the impression that he is hurting for business, so I really don’t think he is just saying that just so I'll buy his custom intercooler...

I would have bet that the meth kit with a small jet/nozzle would have pretty much made up for the smaller intercooler.

I'm trying to lean away from his custom IC, but I do have to wonder if perhaps he would spend a little more time getting the car "right" if he feels the need to show big gains from his custom intercooler?

Thanks for reading through all that!

Thoughts?

chief455
02-17-2015, 11:50 PM
It seems like you thought this through, and the guy you are paying to do it is providing guidance toward your safety and performance goals.
I'd let the guy you are paying have most lateral build leeway as within budget. Accountability will fall on him.
As for your build, I'm no expert on boost, but it reads reasonably to me.
Do it once, do it right!
good luck

MOTOWN
02-18-2015, 02:41 AM
Overall i like the build , but there a few things you just do not need , and will be money better spent in other areas.
The teksid block is a good foundation for a build , on the compression i would do 9.1 , or 10.1 , if your goal is 15-17psi you don't need an 18% balancer you can hit that boost level with a 10 or 15% balancer , and you cannot machine an 18% balancer down without destroying it.
Aftermarket cams are a complete waste of time and money (sound killer though) as for boost a pumps i hate em and would not use it , just run a dual pump setup and upgraded wiring and relays.
I also think rebuilding an oem torque converter is a terrible idea , circle D , or precision is the way to go (i hate going back to fix something twice) do it right the first time.
on the intercooler treadstone , or a bell custom either will get the job done , on the meth kit i wouldn't use anyones kit but Julios from alky control , meth should be triggered off a map based setup as opposed to maf activation , snow , and aem kits are not half of what an alky control kit is.
And meth isn't a substitution for a good intercooler , don't skimp there you will regret it.
As for your local guy handling the tuning i wouldn't let anyone other than Jeff at MOs touch my car! too much time , and money invested to test the waters with someone who may ,or may not know Marauders as well as Jeff does , your rolling the dice with your guy , Jeff is proven and has tuned a ton of Marauders.

SIZEMOREMK
02-18-2015, 07:57 AM
Thanks for the inputs!

So what is it about the KB BAP that might be an issue? It was already installed in the car with some decent gauge wire to battery and a relay...

As for maching the IW balancer, you can send it back to the manufacturer for that same service. The shop here says he can do the same, sounded quite confident... Do you know of an attempt that went wrong?

Agree on cams not really being necessary for this level, but they came in the package deal and really doubt they will hurt.

babbage
02-18-2015, 08:54 AM
Stuff I didn't see that you may want:

Polished crank.
Crank scraper - windage tray?
Moroso 7 Quart oil pan
Polished heads - exhaust ports.
Port match intake + polish
Debur block, radius all sharp edges etc

WhatsUpDOHC
02-18-2015, 05:17 PM
Don't forget the cooling mod.

Also, a build like yours would require some "Presence":

IMHO, performance improvements notwithstanding ($ no object) you should have the lope of cams. I love the sound of mine.

Maybe exhaust dumps to wake the dead?

What about the eye candy in the engine compartment/department?

SIZEMOREMK
02-18-2015, 07:45 PM
Already had the cooling mod, I made sure he knows to swap it to the new heads.

I would love some electric cutouts rigged to open at WOT!

Not much on the eye candy, but it cleans up nice. Got the blue cam covers with clear powdered Powered by Ford coil covers. The IC tubing is powdered a titaniumish color. Pxxton is polished.

na svt
02-27-2015, 08:44 AM
Stock exhaust cams? If so, they don't have nearly the duration to work with a high boost combo.

Stock cams have made 900hp but that doesn't mean they are optimal. If the cams are spec'd correctly the engine will not need nearly as much boost to reach the performance/hp goals. Also, with less boost the engine runs cooler, has lower IATs, and with both comes a lower chance of detonation.

Something like 220/224 or 224/228 on a 115lsa in the engine at 110 would be far better and still offer great off-boost driveability.

SIZEMOREMK
02-27-2015, 10:00 AM
Stock exhaust cams? If so, they don't have nearly the duration to work with a high boost combo.

Stock cams have made 900hp but that doesn't mean they are optimal. If the cams are spec'd correctly the engine will not need nearly as much boost to reach the performance/hp goals. Also, with less boost the engine runs cooler, has lower IATs, and with both comes a lower chance of detonation.

Something like 220/224 or 224/228 on a 115lsa in the engine at 110 would be far better and still offer great off-boost driveability.

Well, I believe he said they were 214 dur .470 lift on the intake, but stock exhaust.

He seemed quite confident in the combo...

When you say high boost, what number would you associate with high boost? Would you consider aver 10 high boost, or over 15 high boost?

Thanks!

na svt
02-27-2015, 10:18 AM
Well, I believe he said they were 214 dur .470 lift on the intake, but stock exhaust.

He seemed quite confident in the combo...

When you say high boost, what number would you associate with high boost? Would you consider aver 10 high boost, or over 15 high boost?

Thanks!

I would not do cams with a 214/196 split with 15psi or even 10 psi for that matter. The engine will make more power than with stock cams but boost masks the ills of poor choices. I see this often.

SIZEMOREMK
02-27-2015, 02:42 PM
Seems like the interwebs always says not to mess with cams and/or porting heads unless looking for 600-700+ to the wheels. The exception being swapping to the 98 intakes for the extra 15-20 HP gain; which is usually only recommended when already going into the motor...

This setup doesn't seem all that far off from the 98 intake swap.

Seems like plenty of guys are running 15-20 PSI with stock cams.


So is the split the problem, or the overall duration of both cams is too short?

na svt
02-27-2015, 07:42 PM
Those that have experience know that the right set of cams will add power to the lowest boost combos, both when in and out of boost. The problem is that most over-cam and as a result the power increases little and driveability goes to ****.

MOTOWN
02-27-2015, 08:13 PM
I think the cost at 1200-1500 for a set of cams + install + adj cam gears if they aren't capable of installing them themselves offsets any gains you may see.

justbob
02-27-2015, 08:13 PM
It sounds to me you are settling with a builder that you you don't particularly trust. You should follow your gut.


Builder Of Badassery

na svt
02-27-2015, 09:17 PM
If your builder doesnt know how to degree cams you need to find another.

SergntMac
02-27-2015, 09:25 PM
It sounds to me you are settling with a builder that you you don't particularly trust. You should follow your gut.


Builder Of Badassery

Only wish I had said this myself, and said it louder. Trust is the key to any builder/buyer relationship. Its like dating two women at one time. You give half, and you'll only get half back. If a builder likes you, you'll get his best. If he knows you are splitting your loyalty, you'll get what you paid for, and not a dime more.

I had a thought about compression, and the weight of forged internals, but it got away from me while typing the first paragraph. Oh yeah...

Out of the gate performance, even just driving away from a stop light, will suck with lower compression and heavier rotating mass. And dont imagine tinkering with the torque converter, or the rear end will address that. It wont. It's mainly just throttle response. Like a weight lifter, it's the first few inches that's important to him. One of my Marauders, the first I think, had a killer launch bone stock. Never knew exactly why, but I could gate 400HP Stangs from a dead stop. A car length on average, and from the stop light, that was a lot. This alone made the car a blast to drive around town.

You know, Ford has been quite the dedicated little engine builder the past few years. From the 5.0 to a 4 cylinder EcoBoost, its been pretty impressive stuff. IMHO, I think the one thing you could point at is compression. The numbers are slowly climbing up, and the performance speaks of that. Ford doesn't care how long the engine will last, because they are making the money hand over fist at the point of sale. After you break this car, you had so much fun, you'll buy another. Short sighted, but clear vision. Please think about you CR one more time?

Y'all be safe.

sailsmen
02-27-2015, 10:39 PM
What I have always found so interesting is how close the 60' times are on cars that have such different set ups. It leads me to believe a lot of money and effort can be focused on things that do not result in a discernible difference.

SIZEMOREMK
02-27-2015, 11:22 PM
I didn't think I gave the impression that this builder doesn't know how to degree cams. That's not what I was trying to say at all. I am aware that they were from a higher powered turbo setup where reverse split cams seem to be popular, but I am still curious about such a large difference in duration. I did question him on the cam selection, but he seemed confident in the setup and at that time I felt comfortable enough with it. Of course when I got tons of interweb reading and time to think on it, I do continue to wonder.

I didn't mean to get all wrapped up in cam selection. It is what it is, as my heads were warped. I figured this set with upgraded cam and valve train, which were included in the package deal, would be worth a little. These cams will be degreed, and I'm confident these guys are up to the task.

This is my first dealing with this shop, and I know some real awesome stuff comes out of his shop; only most of it is LS stuff with a mustang here and there.

Being a little nervous about it is just my nature. That and this was pretty much spur of the moment without a lot of time to plan and prepare financially.

I appreciate all the time you guys spent reading through and your ideas!