Trans Oil Cooler??

[Marauderjack]

Does my 04 car have an external trans oil cooler or just the one in the radiator?? :confused:

I was reading the "Jerry W" articles on another thread and he makes it very plain....HEAT IS THE KILLER!!!! :bounce:

If I don't have an external cooler....What is the best one to install?? ;)

Marauderjack :D :D

[2003 MIB]

Does my 04 car have an external trans oil cooler or just the one in the radiator?? :confused:

I was reading the "Jerry W" articles on another thread and he makes it very plain....HEAT IS THE KILLER!!!! :bounce:

If I don't have an external cooler....What is the best one to install?? ;)

Marauderjack :D :D

Too weird!- I was just looking at my '03 last night. Assuming no changes from 03-04, you do have an external cooler. It is sandwiched between the AC condensor and the radiator. I purchased a 18,000 GVW Tru Cool unit that I plan to install behind the grill. I intend to plumb the new cooler in series with the old cooler. Will it work? I don't know but that's the plan.

[junehhan]

Too weird!- I was just looking at my '03 last night. Assuming no changes from 03-04, you do have an external cooler. It is sandwiched between the AC condensor and the radiator. I purchased a 18,000 GVW Tru Cool unit that I plan to install behind the grill. I intend to plumb the new cooler in series with the old cooler. Will it work? I don't know but that's the plan.

The Marauder actually does have an external cooler which is visible if you take that plastic shroud off under the hood right behind the grille. If you plan on plumbing in another cooler in series with the factory cooler, i'd be careful that you don't take too big of a pressure loss as not having enough transmission fluid pressure is bad.

[Marauderjack]

Do we still have the "In Radiator" heater / cooler that most cars have?? :confused:

I would expect not.

Jerry W says in his literature that ideal trans temp is 165-185 degrees. If we have the radiator cooler it would actually heat the fluid to 188* !!! :fire:

Marauderjack :D

[2003 MIB]

The Marauder actually does have an external cooler which is visible if you take that plastic shroud off under the hood right behind the grille. If you plan on plumbing in another cooler in series with the factory cooler, i'd be careful that you don't take too big of a pressure loss as not having enough transmission fluid pressure is bad.

My thinking here was to put more fluid in...Am I nuts??

[2003 MIB]

Do we still have the "In Radiator" heater / cooler that most cars have?? :confused:

I would expect not.

Jerry W says in his literature that ideal trans temp is 165-185 degrees. If we have the radiator cooler it would actually heat the fluid to 188* !!! :fire:

Marauderjack :D

Nope- Think of the A/C condenser as a piece of bread. The external cooler is the peanut butter and the radiator is the other piece of bread. It's a seperate piece that's sandwiched between the condensor and radiator. Mmmm, I'm hungry now...

[metroplex]

If its anything like the 98-up Crown Vic coolers (that ALL Panthers get, not sure about Marauders) it's a 24,000 GVW stacked plate cooler w/ a built-in thermostatic bypass valve.

After spirited driving that takes me to 6000 RPM, I see an ATF temp of about 180-190F.

[Fahad_H]

If its anything like the 98-up Crown Vic coolers (that ALL Panthers get, not sure about Marauders) it's a 24,000 GVW stacked plate cooler w/ a built-in thermostatic bypass valve.

After spirited driving that takes me to 6000 RPM, I see an ATF temp of about 180-190F.

So, is it useless to upgrade to B&M 24,000 GVW cooler ? :confused:

[metroplex]

So, is it useless to upgrade to B&M 24,000 GVW cooler ? :confused:

Yeah, pretty much. IMHO I would either keep the stock stacked plate cooler, or get a much larger one to replace it.

Having 2 tranny coolers in series adds more resistance to flow, adds extra weight, and there's basically more parts (more tubing, etc...)

Just keep it simple and use a quality synthetic ATF or change Mercon-V every 15k to 20k miles.

I know a guy who thrashes his 4R70W and changes the fluid every 15k to 20k miles and does NOT run a cooler. His temps reach 220F+ all the time. He's got 98k on the healthiest sounding 4R70W.

Another friend of mine NEVER changed the fluid but does have the stock 24,000 GVW cooler on his 99 Vic. He's going to get his 3rd 4R70W. :(

[2003 MIB]

Interesting stuff that makes sense, Metroplex.... I'm glad I didn't install it yet. Maybe I'll use it as an oil cooler and go to the deeper B&M transmission pan... Another 3 quarts can't hurt.

[FordNut]

So, is it useless to upgrade to B&M 24,000 GVW cooler ? :confused:
Several members are using the DR cooler which is added in-line after the OEM cooler. There are no pressure or flow problems reported. The temperature is definitely cooler, partly because it is mounted next to the grille instead of next to the radiator. Most of the users do not have a fan added to the cooler. The OEM unit is between the AC condenser and radiator. That is a "sandwich" of heat producers. The deeper pan has several benefits, the higher volume allows the fluid to have more time to cool rather than being recirculated as frequently. The deeper pans are finned aluminum which dissipates heat better than the OEM pan. The increased capacity also reduces wear to the fluid since it is not recirculated as frequently.

To answer your question, most "experts" (DR, Team Ford, etc.) claim it is not necessary unless you supercharge or otherwise dramatically increase the power output. The best way to find out is to install a tranny temp gauge.

[metroplex]

But with all those mods that you listed, what are your tranny temperatures??

Again I'm using factory fill Mercon-V with the OE tranny oil cooler and my temps are below 195F after a nice aggressive WOT thrash fest in 60F+ ambient.

The best thing you can do to reduce wear is just use a fully synthetic ATF like Amsoil ATF or Redline D4.

That extra amount of ATF you get from an additional cooler isn't anything to write home about (Believe me, I've installed tranny coolers before on several vehicles) and even the 28,000 GVW B&M doesnt hold all that much fluid.

You're just complicating the circuit and adding extra components needlessly. Either get 1 large cooler in a good spot or just use the stock setup w/ regular changes of Mercon-V or a fully synthetic ATF and change that maybe at 30k to 50k miles.
Not to mention you're going to impede the flow of air through your engine coolant radiator just a tad.

Last I talked to JW, I believe he wanted the ATF in the 170F-180F range for the 4R70Ws (if my memory serves me correct). He's the original and in my opinion, the ONLY expert on the 4R70W.

Also you don't want to overcool the ATF. For those with PI stallion converters, its best to monitor the ATF temperature and go from there.

[FordNut]

But with all those mods that you listed, what are your tranny temperatures??.
Don't know, haven't measured it. Didn't see a tranny temp gauge in my mod list yet, did ya?


That extra amount of ATF you get from an additional cooler isn't anything to write home about (Believe me, I've installed tranny coolers before on several vehicles) and even the 28,000 GVW B&M doesnt hold all that much fluid..
But the deeper pan which I was referring to adds 3 quarts.


You're just complicating the circuit and adding extra components needlessly. Either get 1 large cooler in a good spot or just use the stock setup w/ regular changes of Mercon-V or a fully synthetic ATF and change that maybe at 30k to 50k miles..
Just reporting what most other MM owners have done.


Not to mention you're going to impede the flow of air through your engine coolant radiator just a tad.
Hasn't been a problem for anybody so far.


Last I talked to JW, I believe he wanted the ATF in the 170F-180F range for the 4R70Ws (if my memory serves me correct). He's the original and in my opinion, the ONLY expert on the 4R70W.

Again I'm using factory fill Mercon-V with the OE tranny oil cooler and my temps are below 195F after a nice aggressive WOT thrash fest in 60F+ ambient.
Sounds like you need an additional cooler then.

That's the same setup I'm running as for cooler and fluid type.



Also you don't want to overcool the ATF.
Several of the fan-equipped coolers also have a thermostat switch which installs in the fluid line so the fan doesn't always run. I guess if this were installed in the return line to the tranny it would give you the optimal temp regulation.



...its best to monitor the ATF temperature and go from there.
Agreed, just like I said in the previous post.

[Fahad_H]

I have bought B&M 24,000 GVW cooler, but still not installed yet,
I think I will put an oil temp gauge, and monitor the temp after I install the PI 3000 stall converter.
If it exceeded 200F, I would install the B&M 24,000 GVW cooler, and see the difference in temp reading.


PS: At summer the weather betwen 80F-100F.


Thanks,

[Fahad_H]

Found this posted on another forums:


From a certain engineer we all know and love...

Automatic transmission fluid will provide 100,000 miles of service before oxidation occurs under normal operating temperatures of about 170°F. Above normal operating temperatures, the oxidation rate doubles (useful life of fluid is cut in half) with each 20° increase in temperature.

The approximate life expectancy at various temperatures is as follows:


175°F 100,000 miles
195°F 50,000 miles
212°F 25,000 miles
235°F 12,000 miles
255°F 6,250 miles
275°F 3,000 miles
295°F 1,500 miles
315°F 750 miles
335°F 325 miles
355°F 160 miles
375°F 80 miles
390°F 40 miles
415°F Less than 30 minutes


This information clearly shows why transmission oil coolers and the various maintenance intervals are recommended for severe usage.

Above 300°F, the metals inside the transmission will warp and distort in varying degrees depending on the severity of overheat. Because this damage occurs and fluid life is so seriously impaired, rocking out of snow, mud or sand should never exceed a very few minutes.

www.CrownVic.net (http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=587761&Forum=All_Forums&Words=gauge&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Old=allposts&Main=585220&Search=true#Post587761)

[Amsoil_Dealer]

Found this posted on another forums:

This chart does state what type of ATF this is for and I am assuming that this chart refers to Dino ATF or Mercon V at best. That being said, this data supports Metro's comments that auxilliary coolers are not required unless your conditions are very extreme. By this chart even at 200F the standard fluid is going to last 50,000 miles.

Full Synthetic ATF is going to be able to withstand higher temps for longer periods of time. Amsoil claims 100F degrees more temp three times as long as petro ATF. This, I admit may be a stretch but it is widely accepted that true synthetic lubes can take more heat and last longer than conventional lubes or blends (Mercon V). So it could be argued that the extra few bucks per quart for synthetic ATF and 50,000 - 60000 mile drain intervals is a much better value more than several hundred dollars of additional cooler hardware.

Personally, I like the logic of the deeper, finned, 3qt extra pan. But how much is it? A complete 15 qt flush with fresh Amsoil is about $100 worth of product. One could likely do this every 30000 for the cost of the pan/cooler.

Fahad, of course your geographic situation is a little different but again I agree with Metro, keep clean Mercon V in the car and you'll be fine for 30000 mile intervals even in your desert heat.

Don

[Zack]

Before I installed my trans cooler (which is a permacool fin and tube design) The trans temp maxed out at 195 degrees WITH the 3000 stall converter. It reached this max temp during repeated WOT driving, otherwise the temp stayed at around 180.
I opted for the fin and tube design, not the stacked plate design because I was afraid the temp would drop too low, which is bad.
Now my temps are about 155 in around town driving an a max temp of 180 degrees during repeated WOT driving.
Did you know full blown race cars have trans heaters???

[junehhan]

Before I installed my trans cooler (which is a permacool fin and tube design) The trans temp maxed out at 195 degrees WITH the 3000 stall converter. It reached this max temp during repeated WOT driving, otherwise the temp stayed at around 180.
I opted for the fin and tube design, not the stacked plate design because I was afraid the temp would drop too low, which is bad.
Now my temps are about 155 in around town driving an a max temp of 180 degrees during repeated WOT driving.
Did you know full blown race cars have trans heaters???

Out of curiosity, what was the outside temperature when you recorded 195 degree temps during repeated WOT driving? If I ever go the route of a 3000 stall TC, transmission cooling is definately going to be a concern. I had no idea the factory cooler was a 24000 GVRW unit, but that is nice to know.

[Marauderjack]

Well.....

I don't have a trans temp gauge but I guess with the stock cooler I will be OK if I check the fluid color and odor frequently.....Also change the fluid and filter frequently!! :cool4:

Similar to all the "Oil Threads"......"Frequent Changes" is the key!!

I don't drag race or otherwise abuse the car but would like to have it in top running order for a LONG time!! ;)

Most of our service interval are "Overkill" but that's what makes our hobby "Psycologically" fun!!

This is simply the BEST new car I have ever owned and I do plan to have it in my "Estate" when all is said & done!!!! :D

Marauderjack :rasta:

[03SILVERSTREAK]

Well.....

I don't have a trans temp gauge but I guess with the stock cooler I will be OK if I check the fluid color and odor frequently.....Also change the fluid and filter frequently!! :cool4:

Similar to all the "Oil Threads"......"Frequent Changes" is the key!!

I don't drag race or otherwise abuse the car but would like to have it in top running order for a LONG time!! ;)

Most of our service interval are "Overkill" but that's what makes our hobby "Psycologically" fun!!

This is simply the BEST new car I have ever owned and I do plan to have it in my "Estate" when all is said & done!!!! :D

Marauderjack :rasta:If any concern why not get the deep pan , which is made by Art Carr Racing Transmission that D.R. sells . It has the drain plug with a strong magnetic tip . the pan is aluminum with built in heat sink fins and holds 2-3 extra quarts . drive the car for around 2 to 3 weeks and see if there is a diffrence in transmission operation .

[Zack]

Out of curiosity, what was the outside temperature when you recorded 195 degree temps during repeated WOT driving? If I ever go the route of a 3000 stall TC, transmission cooling is definately going to be a concern. I had no idea the factory cooler was a 24000 GVRW unit, but that is nice to know.

It was through the hills of Louisiana on the way to Texas.
Temp was appx. 95-100 degrees.