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Thread: Some More Marauder Dyno Stuff...

  1. #1
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    Some More Marauder Dyno Stuff...

    Its time I thought I’d post some up to the minute and fresh info about a few Marauder things I’ve got happening on the chassis dyno.

    Recently I’ve made post’s or comments about how when I “rear wheel dyno” some automatic trans equipped cars, including the MM’s…. about how I lock the torque converter for the dyno runs only, and proceed to make pulls.
    It’s possible that some people may think that this might be cheating or wrong in some way in terms of the numbers that come out of it. Actually though it gives a more true and accurate RWHP number because it eliminates the torque converters fluid coupling making for a more efficient + true and realistic dyno curve with less loss in the power train.

    The Marauder and many other Fords that have electronic locking torque converters lock in 3rd any way when stock, so when you dyno a MM they are actually locked in 3rd for most of the pull any way. What we do on the dyno is not let it down shift out of 3rd and lock the converter the whole time its in 3rd gear for the pull on the dyno. This allows us to show a very long, broad and full pull starting literally from as low as 1300rpm’s or lower in 3rd gear.
    A lot of other tuners don’t do what I do with the lock-up or lack there of on the “street”, so quite a few peoples tunes out there already are locked in 3rd when dynoing… they just have to find the sweet spot where it wont down shift out of 3rd from a roll on the dyno. We simply adjust the down shift so it doesn’t happen when on the dyno.

    By the way… 3rd gear is used because it’s a 1 to 1 gear ratio and is the same as 4th gear in most 5 and 6 speed manual trans cars. 1 to1 is the preferred gear for chassis dynoing usually.

    The dyno graphs I’ve posted are …. 100% stock Marauder pulls with only two things changed in the stock program.

    1st I got rid of the speed limiter, other wise it would only go to about 5300rpm and then hit the approximate 120mph speed limiter.

    2nd I made it not down shift out of 3rd gear once it got over 25mph and locked the converter at 24 mph.

    So this made for a very broad, lugging and bogging down type of a pull starting at about 1300 rpm which is how I would do it any way if this was a stick shift type car.

    For now the other pulls that have been added are my performance tune for MM’s that are totally un-modded or very mild stuff like a gear and maybe pulleys etc... I thought I’d post this too to show sort of an update about what our chip appears to be worth on stock N/A Marauders with nothing else done to them.
    Remember though… its not all about what happens at the rear wheels with my MM performance tune (even though I’m posting this stuff) its about how they feel and respond when actually driving the car. There are many things I do that just cant be measured on the dyno, as I always say… “they have to be felt in the seat of your pants”.

    In a few days I’m going to be posting results with a Trilogy blower starting as low as 1300rpm on the dyno and then once again showing what the K&N filter kit adds and in addition changing the blower pulley from a 3.4” down to a 3.2” as well.

    And also in about 15-20 days I’m going to be dynoing a local guys MM with a Vortech installed on it along with no other performance work at all. Vortech only.
    And of course I’m going to dyno it with the trans stuff as described above to show what’s going on with the HP and Torque right off idle. From my understanding the Local Vortech MM is at 8 or 9 psi of boost. The stock Trilogy’s are set at 9.5 out of the box.

    This is the comparison that I think quite a few people might want to see, and others not want to see.
    Unless certain people don’t want to see this… its coming in about 15-20 days.

    But before the end of this week I’ll have the Trilogy vs stock MM numbers up with the 1300 rpm starting point this whole post is about.


    Thanks
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Lidio; 12-09-2004 at 04:02 PM.


    I may not be at the top (yet) but definitely on top of things.

    Lidio Iacobelli
    Alternativeauto.com

    (586)-949-7505

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Good info Lidio.

    Thanks for the good explanation.

    As always...its appreciated!
    Silver 2004 Marauder
    Trilogy #48 (SOLD April 2014)

    1984 Mustang GT, stock, 60,000 original miles (SOLD August 2013)

    2017 Ram Rebel 1500, Silver: 5.7 Hemi, Lots of extras...
    Previous: 2014 Durango R/T

  3. #3
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    What he ^^^^^^ said. Its great to hear from people who know their stuff and willinging share with the rest of us.
    2003 MM 300B

  4. #4
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    Nice Job!

    Great numbers!

    I haven't been dynoed...(yet) so it's cool to see what my HP & TQ numbers might be. All I can say is that with this chip and gear mod only, I took off almost a full second from my stock ET's.

    15.199 @ 93.xx stock, to a 14.234 @ 97.17 = 0.965 ET reduction.

    Huge on the seat of the pants feeling.

    Lidio, don't tell me what I'm getting for Christmas...Heather said it's pretty cool, and it's a big surprise...so don't spill the beans!

    Also looking forward to the S/C, and N/A dyno comparison numbers as well.

    -Mat
    2004 Black Mercury Marauder
    Trilogy Eaton Intercooled Supercharger #200
    483 RWHP 471 RWTQ @ 13.5 lbs of Boost 2.8" Pulley
    11.76 @ 116.25 1.65 60ft
    17,500 Miles

  5. #5
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    Stock Marauder vs Trilogy RWHP and TQ...

    I now have dyno results for a totally stock Marauder and the same car with a Trilogy 9.5psi boost kit installed.

    As I mentioned in earlier posts in this thread for dyno purposes only I now use a special trans program to lock the converter in 3rd gear and do not allow the trans to down shift out of 3rd once the vehicle is over 25mph or so. This makes for a very broad and long pull that’s capable of showing just how much low end torque and grunt a Trilogy kit is capable of producing on a Marauder that’s totally stock. This allows the pulls to start as low as about 1300 to 1600 rpm.

    In the Rear-Wheel “TORUE” graph I’ve posted you can see how a trilogy adds over 100ft lbs of torque by about 1800rpm’s. I tried to get it to start showing results at about 1300 rpm but for some reason it wouldn’t on the pulls that had the blower on the car. Either way… its undeniable the amount of obvious low-end torque the car picked up at the very low and most used rpm range of a heavy automatic trans equipped car.

    The horsepower picked up very nicely as well and carries it much, much further then with out a blower kit.
    The power that this particular MM made with a stock Trilogy is a little higher then most. I’m assuming it’s because it about 45degrees outside now and about 55-63deg. in the dyno area.

    These graphs shows why an entirely stock Marauder wakes up so much with nothing done to it at all except for a Trilogy blower kit all by its self. Even though this set up makes nice and respectable rear wheel HP at peak… It’s the large and early torque curve that are what get the heavy car going.

    In about 10 days I’m going to show exactly what I’ve posted here and compare them to a MM with a centrifugal type of blower that’s making 9psi of boost.

    Thanks
    Attached Images Attached Images


    I may not be at the top (yet) but definitely on top of things.

    Lidio Iacobelli
    Alternativeauto.com

    (586)-949-7505

  6. #6
    Join Date
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    Great info, Lidio. Will the centrifugal MM have only a blower or have other mods been done?
    2003 Marauder 300A
    Trilogy Supercharger Serial #0054
    Installed by Carfixer 10/16/2004

    Tallboy's Garage

  7. #7
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    Nov 2002
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    Thank, Lidio, as usual, very valuable 411.

    It's getting difficult for me to get a true 3rd gear pull from my MM. My last attempts wouldn't let me start the pull below 4400 RPM, a result of a tight 3500 stall converter and 4:10 gearing. When I'm looking for 411 on my own car, I just start out from zero and drive through the gear changes. The end results are skewed and overstated, but I'm not looking at that anyway. It's the only way I can see what's happening throughout the power range.

  8. #8
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    Great Data Lidio....Just when I am beginning to consider other Supercharger options, I see the 'Big Block' thumper torque the Trilogy is making at 1600 rpms and start drooling.....
    I am DEFINITELY driving out to your shop next spring for a 'LIDIO' tune on my new big bore DOHC.
    Now if only I can pull $6500 out of thin air for a Trilogy Kit, I'd be set!!!
    2020 Ford Ranger STX DFI Turbo 2.3L 10 speed Auto
    2017 Ford Fusion Sport DFI Twin Turbo 2.7L V6 6 speed Auto (14.000 ET bone stock in 82 degree heat)
    1985 Mustang GT 5.0 Hatchback 4bbl 5 speed manual (525 HP 363 Dart block/AFR heads with Magnum 6 speed in the works)
    1984 Mustang GT 2.3 Turbo Convertible FI. 5 speed manual
    1966 427 Cobra (ERA) 468 all Aluminum FE 2x4bbl 5 speed manual

    SOLD : 2003 Mercury Marauder FI. 4 speed Auto
    w/Crower Cams & Springs, +1mm SS valves, mild port job on the cylinder heads.
    Extrude honed intake w/PHP spacer.
    Kooks Headers w/2.5" High Flow Cats & X-Pipe, Magnaflow mufflers, OEM tailpipes w/Megs Tips
    B&M Trans cooler w/fan, Level 10 Shift Kit, Art Carr Hughes Deep Sump Trans Pan,
    SVO Rearend Girdle, Redline Gear lube; OEM 3.55s
    'Real Gauges' + matching Trans Temp, Oil Temp, Water Temp, Fuel Pressure, Vacuum/Boost Gauge
    Built: 10/15/02 Bought: 12/16/02 Sold: 10/15/18

  9. #9
    MikesMerc Guest
    Thanks for info Lidio. It will be nice to see here in one place the kind of comparison data that supports the points I've made in many of my posts.

    adds over 100ft lbs of torque by about 1800rpm’s
    THAT is what its all about folks! That's some serious gain down low.


    its undeniable the amount of obvious low-end torque the car picked up at the very low and most used rpm range of a heavy automatic trans equipped car
    This is what most folks don't understand. Its what happens down low that effects a street car the most.

    Looking forward to the rest of the comparison.

  10. #10
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    The Roots vs Centrifugal Dyno tests...

    Here it is…

    This is the one that a lot of people are waiting to see and some probably don’t.
    As slanted as this may appear to be to some because of the nature of this comparison. I’m posting it any way because I want to show the difference in low-end-torque between a roots blower and centrifugal type on a 4.6L, 4-Valve MM set up. This is the real deal between roots type blowers and Centrifugals. The main reason for this is to exemplify the difference in low end torque and off idle or as close to off idle TQ each one makes. In no way is the tune responsible for the obvious difference between the two.

    First I want to say that I’ve tuned a lot of Vortech equipped cars in the last 12+ years and have really excelled in it the last couple of years because of our dyno and software we now use. Tuning a centrifugal car for us is no big deal, we’ve done hundreds with proper and expected results. The difference in low end shown here is not the tune in any way. It’s the boost, or lack there of, down low. I know I’m repeating my self here.

    The tune on the MM with the Vortech shown here was done totally by me because the owner of the car wasn’t happy with the facility that installed and tuned the combination initially here in MI. Sadly as can be seen in the dyno graphs, the blower belt squealed and slipped causing a boost drop at the high end of the pull. This made the Vortech equipped car obviously not make the over all high RPM power that it was capable of. But this post and these graphs are to show the difference in low end torque between the two.

    Just a side note… The blower belt on a Trilogy set up is its own stand alone 8-rib belt just for the blower. The Vortech set-up’s use one 6-rib to support all the accessories and the blower too.

    Also the Cyntrifugal equipped car had long tube headers and only the stock front two cats removed, not all four. I’m not sure why this was done. I feel leaving the rest of the system stock especially the mufflers, negates the use of the headers. I also feel that the centrifugal equipped car would have made a pretty impressive peak number had the boost not fell off. As you can see in the graph, the boost was continuing to rise pretty good on the Vortech car and probably would have hit 9.5 to 10psi and a least 390-400+ RWHP.

    Not to many people I know… in-fact no one I know at this time (except for JW @ SCT) is doing what I do with the trans shifts and converter here (when dynoing) . Where I set it up to “not” down shift out of third gear once its over 25mph and lock the converter the whole time. As I’ve said before, this shows a very real Torque and HP pull just like a stick shift car would on a chassis dyno. This showing of the amount of low end these have is what’s felt and used the most on heavy street cars from street light to street light and day to day!

    Just for some added info and data, I also posted a dyno graph of a Stick-shift ’03 Mach-1 we did a Vortech on recently… which ran very good with long tubes and a full 2.5” exhaust with two hi-flo cats too.
    The ’03-’04 Mach-1’s have the same motor as the MM’s except the stick-shift Mach-1’s got a steel crank. The MM’s and auto trans Mach’s got a cast crank.
    The Mach made the power and torque over all like it should from 2000 RPM’s all the way up. The Mach makes more then the MM with a Vortech over all because of less power train losses and it’s a stick shift.

    This is all good and honest data for those interested in a blower for their cars. It’s a pretty fair example of the low end grunt differences.

    As can be seen in the Trilogy’s low end torque… this is the reason a Trilogy MM will run very good with nothing done to it at all other then the Trilogy blower kit. They perform very well with out a loose, after market torque-converter and do very well with the stock 3.55s in axle too. Although they wake up more with additional boost and other upgrades as well.



    Thanks
    Attached Images Attached Images


    I may not be at the top (yet) but definitely on top of things.

    Lidio Iacobelli
    Alternativeauto.com

    (586)-949-7505

  11. #11
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    More dyno stuff with a Mach-1 w/ a Vortech blower...

    These are some more dyno graphs of a Mach-1 with a 32V 4.6L motor just like the MM’s. These are to show that even the Mach-1 with a Vortech and tuned right makes roughly the same low end TQ as the MM with a Vortech.


    Thanks
    Attached Images Attached Images


    I may not be at the top (yet) but definitely on top of things.

    Lidio Iacobelli
    Alternativeauto.com

    (586)-949-7505

  12. #12
    MARAUDER S/C #5 Guest
    Thanks for the info Lidio. I think the results are what most of us expected.

  13. #13
    MikesMerc Guest
    Good info Lidio.

    If I'm reading this right, it looks like the roots blower motor is putting out almost 300 ft lbs of TQ at only 2000 RPM! That's awesome low end power.

    I know that some folks may not appreciate me saying this, but its these exact power production differences between the SC set ups that has me recommending the roots based kit over any others for our heavy MMs. The difference between centrifugal and roots power production down low, where most street driving occurs, is overwhelming. I really like having the power "on tap" without having to wind up the motor to the high rpm ranges to get into the boost.

    Well done for putting into graphs what I've tried hard to explain to my MM brethren over the last year. Now I have a point of reference to point to. Thank you.

  14. #14
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    Lidio, First I would like to thank you for all your time on these Dyno numbers for all the members. I am doing my Dyno run with the ProCharger kit on Dec. 28th and just want to make sure that I run my testing like you have. I want everyone to have a Dyno to Dyno compaison on all blowers. I have a couple of questions on the Roots blower Dyno run you made.

    1. Was the car cold or at operating tempature?

    2.Were you blowing a fan on it and if so how many HP fan?

    3. What was the tempature in the shop?

    4. Were you running the stock MAF?

    5. Were you running the stock Air filter?

    6. What octane fuel was run?

    7. what fuel pump system were you running?

    8. Is there anything diffrent that is not included in the Roots blower kit on the car?

    9. What is your diffrential tempature at the intake under full boost using a Pyromoter?

    When, I do my Dyno run on the 28th below is what I will do.

    1. Lock up the converter

    2. I have a 90 MM MAF

    3. Twin Cobra pumps

    4. 4:10 Gears

    5. I will give the Inside Temp.

    6. The car will be at operating temp.

    7. I will be running winter grade 91 Ocatne fuel.

    8. I will run 9 Pounds of Boost.

    9. Rear cooling mod

    10. Art Car Trans Mod(stock Converter)

    11. You do not need the trans mod, rear cooling mod or 4:10 gears on any of these kits but I would consider them.

    12.I will give the intake diffrential tempature at full boost using a pyromoter.

    Lidio, let me know if there is anything else that you need to know or want me to do on my run. I want everyone on this site that is interested in a blower to have all there Dyno numbers equal but just remember that a Dyno is just part of the process. Driving the car is most important and also factor in the cost to HP ratio.

    Thanks, Greg (maraudernkc)




    Quote Originally Posted by Lidio
    Here it is…

    This is the one that a lot of people are waiting to see and some probably don’t.
    As slanted as this may appear to be to some because of the nature of this comparison. I’m posting it any way because I want to show the difference in low-end-torque between a roots blower and centrifugal type on a 4.6L, 4-Valve MM set up. This is the real deal between roots type blowers and Centrifugals. The main reason for this is to exemplify the difference in low end torque and off idle or as close to off idle TQ each one makes. In no way is the tune responsible for the obvious difference between the two.

    First I want to say that I’ve tuned a lot of Vortech equipped cars in the last 12+ years and have really excelled in it the last couple of years because of our dyno and software we now use. Tuning a centrifugal car for us is no big deal, we’ve done hundreds with proper and expected results. The difference in low end shown here is not the tune in any way. It’s the boost, or lack there of, down low. I know I’m repeating my self here.

    The tune on the MM with the Vortech shown here was done totally by me because the owner of the car wasn’t happy with the facility that installed and tuned the combination initially here in MI. Sadly as can be seen in the dyno graphs, the blower belt squealed and slipped causing a boost drop at the high end of the pull. This made the Vortech equipped car obviously not make the over all high RPM power that it was capable of. But this post and these graphs are to show the difference in low end torque between the two.

    Just a side note… The blower belt on a Trilogy set up is its own stand alone 8-rib belt just for the blower. The Vortech set-up’s use one 6-rib to support all the accessories and the blower too.

    Also the Cyntrifugal equipped car had long tube headers and only the stock front two cats removed, not all four. I’m not sure why this was done. I feel leaving the rest of the system stock especially the mufflers, negates the use of the headers. I also feel that the centrifugal equipped car would have made a pretty impressive peak number had the boost not fell off. As you can see in the graph, the boost was continuing to rise pretty good on the Vortech car and probably would have hit 9.5 to 10psi and a least 390-400+ RWHP.

    Not to many people I know… in-fact no one I know at this time (except for JW @ SCT) is doing what I do with the trans shifts and converter here (when dynoing) . Where I set it up to “not” down shift out of third gear once its over 25mph and lock the converter the whole time. As I’ve said before, this shows a very real Torque and HP pull just like a stick shift car would on a chassis dyno. This showing of the amount of low end these have is what’s felt and used the most on heavy street cars from street light to street light and day to day!

    Just for some added info and data, I also posted a dyno graph of a Stick-shift ’03 Mach-1 we did a Vortech on recently… which ran very good with long tubes and a full 2.5” exhaust with two hi-flo cats too.
    The ’03-’04 Mach-1’s have the same motor as the MM’s except the stick-shift Mach-1’s got a steel crank. The MM’s and auto trans Mach’s got a cast crank.
    The Mach made the power and torque over all like it should from 2000 RPM’s all the way up. The Mach makes more then the MM with a Vortech over all because of less power train losses and it’s a stick shift.

    This is all good and honest data for those interested in a blower for their cars. It’s a pretty fair example of the low end grunt differences.

    As can be seen in the Trilogy’s low end torque… this is the reason a Trilogy MM will run very good with nothing done to it at all other then the Trilogy blower kit. They perform very well with out a loose, after market torque-converter and do very well with the stock 3.55s in axle too. Although they wake up more with additional boost and other upgrades as well.



    Thanks
    Last edited by maraudernkc; 12-20-2004 at 10:04 AM.

  15. #15
    TripleTransAm Guest
    Great info, Lidio. Thanks for posting it. Looks to me that if the belt hadn't been slipping on the Vortech, the actual peak power numbers would have been slightly in favour of the Vortech, since it would appear the torque production would surpass the Eaton above 5500.

    Amazing how two different approaches can yield similar great results on the track: one would think the softer power delivery of the Vortech would make it a more consistent bracket racer, keeping the all-out punch for when the car has hooked up, but the more ample low end of the Eaton with a good gripping launch would give it the chance to get a head start before the Vortech came on stronger at the top and hunted it down.

    As for preference on the street, I can see where either could be appreciated. 300 lb-ft (at the wheels, more like 350-375 lb-ft at the tranny!) at such a low RPM is going to be more brutal on parts, but for those looking for immediate punch at all times, I can see where it would be preferred. Likewise, there are those who prefer working closer to the MM's stock behaviour around town and keeping the pounding power delivery to when it's really needed, and might appreciate perhaps less of a brutal torque delivery at low RPMs.

    In any case, it just sounds like two different but equally tasty flavours of MM fun: awesome and fabulous.

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