Forced Rear lube on 4R70W???

[Lidio]

Hey Guys


I’ve got a lot of experience with Ford AOD, AOE-E and the Current 4R70W’s. My shop is not real public about our AOD program because we’re not into mail order on things of this nature some times. What’s the purpose of this MOD?

In sever duty drag application these transmission all “rock” for us and our customers. What brought on this “Forced rear lube” thing?
It must pertain to maybe a problem for the guys who take their AOD cars out in the open, long roads at very high speeds for a long time. Because for us and our regulars for street and strip we’ve had no problems…. I’m referring to all Fords we deal with that have these transmissions, not just the Marauder’s.

In a few days I’m becoming a sponsor for this site and will go into some detail on 4R70W’s and AOD’s with my experiences and upgrades in my section.


Thanks

[sailsmen]

The output shaft bushing has a tendency to spin. Recc for 4.10 or higher gears.

Hhappened to an MM member and pics of the bushing after it started gauleing were posted

[RCSignals]

Sailsmen, wasn't that on a stock set up? No rear gear change on it?

[sailsmen]

I don't remeber, maybe someonelse can find the thread.

[jgc61sr2002]

Lidio - Welcome as a new vendor. You are already well known on this site. Good luck.

[jfclancy]

Hey Lidio
Good news welcome as a vendor, but befroe you take that step ... I just had my transmisson fluid changed and the filter looked good but the fluid was VERY dark. Had the thing "flushed" to get all of that dark stuff out. The question comes in my MM only has 17,000 miles on it, is this "normal"?

Joe Clancy

[Dennis Reinhart]

I would sugest you read Jerry's article I have been doing the lube on the tail shaft for over 5 years I have never had a bushing failure, the tail shaft is not real prone to this till you start installing 4:10 or higher gears. http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny...on/index.shtml

[Lidio]

Not trying to start a war or difference in opinions here but just as I suspected this is a problem brought on by a mod that brings out another problem that goes un-addressed. From what I see it’s not the change or increased rpm’s that result in a tail bushing failure… it’s a vibration from the increased speeds of the drive shaft when going to the big gears.

I’ve been recommending and installing 3.73’s, 4.10’s, 4.30’s and even 4.56’s to the AOD and 4R70W Mustang guys for over a decade and have yet to see this failure. The older and most current Mustangs didn’t have the luxury of coming with a descent aluminum drive shaft from the factory so as soon as you threw some thing big in the axle like a 4.10… they’d vibrate on the first test drive at 75-90mph. We’d address this immediately by suggesting the customer upgrade to the readily available and affordable FRT aluminum drive shafts and that was the end of it. Also Mustangs typically have tires that are not as tall as the rear tires of a MM. So a mustang with a 4.10 will turn more rpm at lets say 80mph then a MM with 4.10’s. So I have a tough time believing this is a needed upgrade as long as the drive line is not truly vibrating once big gears have been done and any potential vibrations caught and handled properly.

For right now my own MM has only a 4.10 plus our chip and just recently I had it out on the highway to see how it felt at very high speeds, and sure enough it clearly has what feels like a driveline vibration when it got over 115ish. I’m one to always believe that just because I felt it at certain mph, what’s to say that it isn’t happening at slightly lower speeds and you just can’t quite feel it, but it’s doing damage?

I’m not going to pop for a full-on aftermarket drive shaft for right now. I’m going to bring the stock one to one of two local balance shops and see if the stock drive shaft in my MM will balance out. If it doesn’t… I won’t hesitate to buy a good one.

Thanks

[FordNut]

When I changed to 4.10s and a no-speed-limit chip, I noticed a very slight vibration at high speeds. It wasn't a serious vibration so I didn't worry about it for awhile. The next oil change, while it was on the rack, I looked at the tailhousing and noticed tranny fluid dripping from the seal. My next mod was the MMX driveshaft and I haven't seen any more signs of fluid leakage.

[schuvwj]

Originally posted by Lidio
I’ve been recommending and installing 3.73’s, 4.10’s, 4.30’s and even 4.56’s to the AOD and 4R70W Mustang guys for over a decade and have yet to see this failure.

For right now my own MM has only a 4.10 plus our chip and just recently I had it out on the highway to see how it felt at very high speeds, and sure enough it clearly has what feels like a driveline vibration when it got over 115ish. I’m one to always believe that just because I felt it at certain mph, what’s to say that it isn’t happening at slightly lower speeds and you just can’t quite feel it, but it’s doing damage?

I’m not going to pop for a full-on aftermarket drive shaft for right now. I’m going to bring the stock one to one of two local balance shops and see if the stock drive shaft in my MM will balance out. If it doesn’t… I won’t hesitate to buy a good one.

Lidio sounds like you really know these transmissions! Since your experience has shown little or no 4R70W Mustang tail stock failures, even without rear tail shaft lube kits, could it be we have more problems is:

1) Drive shaft is longer causing increased chance for vibration especially with 4.10s and higher?

2) Could the weight difference between our MM's and Mustangs cause additional oportunities for wear?

3) From what I’ve heard on this site the assembly process on our MM transmission needed improvement in one or all of the following areas: training of new assembly workers, assembly process was not followed, or there was no assembly documentation at all. (Sounds like the process was broken and Management did not care!)

Thanks!

[Lidio]

I’ll try to help out with a couple of the questions here.

Dark ATF is not a horrible thing. ATF has high amounts detergent in it so it is normal for it to darken after several thousand miles. If it’s brown and has that burnt ATF odor that is quite obvious… then I’d be worried. But a dark red as opposed to a bright pink or bright red, I’d say it’s OK… as long as it felt fine before the service I’m sure it will be fine after the fluid and filter service too. To be honest I haven’t looked in a new car manual for recommended trans service intervals in a long time including my own MM.

Being a tech and all I’ve always done maintenance of this nature so often and so much sooner then recommended I always thought, I never even keep records of it on my own rides. On my ’99 SuperDuty diesel (got it new in Feb of ’98) which sees about 22-25K a year and lots of it is with a 40ft car hauler behind it… I change it once a year in the spring. It always comes out dark and no problems have ever happened with that Auto trans. It now has about 125K on it. In retrospect I have to say its been awesome in terms of reliability for the trans and the 7.3L diesel it came with.

As I said earlier my suspicions of this being a vibration related seem some what true. The MM drive shaft is longer and definitely could be more of a problem then a mustang drive shaft that I’m used to, as far as weight goes maybe a little too but hard to say. A marauder isn’t that mush harder then a Mustang to keep up to cruise speeds and acceleration. As far as the MM 4R70W being assembled different then other 4R70W’s on other cars I don’t know. I can tell you we had one down and apart about two weeks ago and it looked like a garden verity 4R70W of the last 8-10 years.

In a few days when my vender thread starts I have a long write-up about AOD-E’s and 4R70W’s and what I’ve seen in the last ten years with them behind some serious small block Ford’s. But I will say some thing in short about that write up now.



As long as you keep one of these transmissions out of Overdrive when being seriously abusive… It is one of Ford’s toughest transmissions ever made for a small-block!!!
I intend to explain why overdrive is such a problem and what gets hurt when going into and mostly (down shifting) out of Overdrive at high loads.
This being that there is no vibrations in the driveline, no factory flaws or mis-builds and the shifts firmed up properly for the level of power being thrown at it.


Thanks

[Marauderer]

Thanks Lidio. It's about time that someone in the know got on here and put a foot forward in this area. Of course there are differing opinions, theories, and horror stories, but many that jump on these topics lack the key to putting all of the "conversations", "reading", and "Internet Browsing" together and that is EXPERIENCE! Right or wrong, you have seen enough in reality to shape your opinion.

Now I'm not saying that "you" or anyone else is the one to follow on this issue as that is just not how I work; I'm for independent thought and not a sheep.

I'm just glad to see a discussion that has something other than "someone told me" or "I saw it once at someone's shop" behind it!