Tick... Tick... Tick...again...

[TooManyFords]

I agree with Mac on this one. I would definitely pull the other head to clean those pistons and the combustion chambers. If the other bank of pistons look similar, then you really need to go out and run it up to WOT at least once a week. That helps.

The only other question I have is do you see any blue smoke? Are we dealing with a compelte failure of valve stem seals? Or could it be the gas? There is way too much carbon build-up to be just gas unless you really never get above 1500 rpm while putting around town.

Carbon build-up is a vicious cycle; it builds up and causes pinging which the computer detects so it pulls timing which then leads to more build-up which leads to less timing...

Keep us posted and get some good pictures of the combustion chamber.

Good luck.

John

[looking97233]

My MM never gets driven easy. I drive it hard however, not harshly. The car sees WOT just about every day it is driven. As I said eariler in this thread, this is a problem that has been building since almost new. I have tried and tried in the past to get somebody to look at (Ford/ LM dealers) but all I got was either "that's normal there's nothing wrong" or, "Ford says they know there is a problem and they're working on a fix"

A question for ya'all... This carbon build up, what is it caused by? Is it from running lean and too hot over a long period of time? Or from oil intrusion into the cylinders? Or something else altoghter?

I have hi-res pics of each cylinder, I will upload them this evening when I get home from work.

Thanks, keep the info flowing.
Rod.

[rumble]

I know an old issue.



So, I dropped the car off monday night, got a call this afternoon. They say the problem is a faulty lifter. i.e. one of them won't stay pumped up. The problem is finding which one.

Can any knowelogeable people comment on the dealers diagnosis?
Thanks,
Rod.

I assume that all the lifters have checked out OK now that the head is off?

[looking97233]

I assume that all the lifters have checked out OK now that the head is off?

I think so. The machuine shop is doing valve seats and new valves.

[looking97233]

Okay hi-res pictures of each hole 2,4,6,8 have been uploaded to the gallery.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/galle...500&ppuser=447

Okay I found out that the most likely reason for the carbon build-up would be from running rich. So what causes that? Bad injectors- poor atomization and/or spray pattern? I believe the pingging is a symptom of the carbon build-up. Funny, I thought one usually associates pinging with a lean condition. But for all that carbon to build-up it must be running pig rich, right?

After talking with the service rep. today, they will clean the carbon off the open side and pull plugs to bore-scope the other side, if necessary they will pull the other head to clean that side too. They are replacing valves on the bad head, that is all the waranty company will pay for.

I am going to call Dennis in the morning and have him ship a rear engine cooling kit to the dealer so they can install that while the head is off.

Anyone else have any help, ideas or other such stuff?

[rayjay]

Wow! Thats a mess. What fuel was run it? I believe you have to pull the engine to install the DR rear cooling kit.

[JACook]

In the pic. you can see where at the top of each piston there is a ridge of carbon. This ridge is almost 1/16" thick.

The carbon ridge corresponds with the quench zone between the intake valves. This is fairly common.
There's a corresponding quench zone between the exhaust valves, but you won't see the heavy buildup
there because the quench zone is a bit shallower, and there's a lot more heat between the exhaust
valves than between the intakes.

Carbon buildup in this area does not increase detonation. In fact, it has exactly the opposite effect.
By reducing the effective head-to-piston clearance, it improves quench turbulence. That's a Good Thing.
Also, I see no evidence at all of collisions with the cylinder head. This buildup is not causing the tick.

Guys, I've seen way worse than this in engines I've pulled apart. And I've pulled apart quite a few.
The coolant that soaked into the carbon, and/or solvent that was sprayed in the cylinders to keep 'em
from rusting, make the buildup look worse than it is. This stuff would have been grey before it got wet.
The shiny areas that are showing through tell me this stuff isn't as thick as y'all seem to think it is.
I can clearly see the contour of the dish, though it is a softer dish than some other modular pistons
I've seen.

The buildup comes primarily from oil burning in the cylinders. Running rich will not cause this. Running the
engine hard does help to reduce the buildup, but just using WOT isn't enough. You have to drive it like
you stole it. Get some heat in those cylinders. Find the rev limiter. Take longer trips.

I'm not nearly so concerned with the carbon buildup as I am with the amount of varnish I see in the
timing chain area and in the cylinder head oil drainback passages. What kind of oil are you running in this
engine? How long between changes? Please promise me this car's never been to a Jiffy Lube...

[looking97233]

The carbon ridge corresponds with the quench zone between the intake valves. This is fairly common.
There's a corresponding quench zone between the exhaust valves, but you won't see the heavy buildup
there because the quench zone is a bit shallower, and there's a lot more heat between the exhaust
valves than between the intakes.

Carbon buildup in this area does not increase detonation. In fact, it has exactly the opposite effect.
By reducing the effective head-to-piston clearance, it improves quench turbulence. That's a Good Thing.
Also, I see no evidence at all of collisions with the cylinder head. This buildup is not causing the tick.

Guys, I've seen way worse than this in engines I've pulled apart. And I've pulled apart quite a few.
The coolant that soaked into the carbon, and/or solvent that was sprayed in the cylinders to keep 'em
from rusting, make the buildup look worse than it is. This stuff would have been grey before it got wet.
The shiny areas that are showing through tell me this stuff isn't as thick as y'all seem to think it is.
I can clearly see the contour of the dish, though it is a softer dish than some other modular pistons
I've seen.

The buildup comes primarily from oil burning in the cylinders. Running rich will not cause this. Running the
engine hard does help to reduce the buildup, but just using WOT isn't enough. You have to drive it like
you stole it. Get some heat in those cylinders. Find the rev limiter. Take longer trips.

I'm not nearly so concerned with the carbon buildup as I am with the amount of varnish I see in the
timing chain area and in the cylinder head oil drainback passages. What kind of oil are you running in this
engine? How long between changes? Please promise me this car's never been to a Jiffy Lube...

JACook-

All services have been performed by a F/L/M Dealer. Oil should be Motorcraft 5w-20w synth-blend(That is what they're supposed to use, and I tell them each and evry time just to remind them.) Intervial between service 5k mi. or less.

So what is your "o'er the net diagnosis" of the cause for the heavy pinging?
Always run 92 octaine gas(best we can get in Oregon or Washington) She gets run hard, often 4+ hrs at 80-90mph on the freeway. Just got back from a six week road trip. Put 10,000 mi on her during that time. Texas is a big place. It has had the tick since about 15k mi. The pinging showed up soon after, and both have grown woorse over time. Dealer says they are replacing two valves, springs, and seats on theoffending head. I just want to find out what the root cause is and make sure it gets fixed so I don't end up in the same place again.

Rod.

[JACook]

So what is your "o'er the net diagnosis" of the cause for the heavy pinging?
Always run 92 octaine gas(best we can get in Oregon or Washington) She gets run hard, often 4+ hrs at 80-90mph on the freeway. Just got back from a six week road trip. Put 10,000 mi on her during that time. Texas is a big place. It has had the tick since about 15k mi. The pinging showed up soon after, and both have grown woorse over time. Dealer says they are replacing two valves, springs, and seats on theoffending head. I just want to find out what the root cause is and make sure it gets fixed so I don't end up in the same place again.

Given the vintage, and the known #7 and #8 cooling problems, I'd suspect that's what did you in.
(BTW, Ford numbers the driver's side cylinders 5,6,7,8. Don't ask me why.)
The cooling problems could account for both the pinging and the burnt valves. My late-production 300B
has a 3G-120-BB tag on the right cam cover, the blue paint visible just under the left cam cover, and
the CRD1 calibration label on the driver's door pillar. It has no hint of ping on Kalifornia 91 octane and
90-plus ambient temps. If it were me, I'd be pushing for a revised cylinder head, or at least do the DR
cooling mod. And if it still pings after you get some miles on the repair, get it right back in there, and
don't take no for an answer. I should think you've got some leverage now.

[SergntMac]

I believe you have to pull the engine to install the DR rear cooling kit.

Not at all, Zack installs the kit from up top. If you have the tranny out for other reasons, that's the easiest time to install it, but the engine does not have to come out.

The carbon ridge corresponds with the quench zone between the intake valves. This is fairly common. There's a corresponding quench zone between the exhaust valves, but you won't see the heavy buildup there because the quench zone is a bit shallower, and there's a lot more heat between the exhaust valves than between the intakes. Carbon buildup in this area does not increase detonation. In fact, it has exactly the opposite effect.
By reducing the effective head-to-piston clearance, it improves quench turbulence. That's a Good Thing. Also, I see no evidence at all of collisions with the cylinder head. This buildup is not causing the tick.

Guys, I've seen way worse than this in engines I've pulled apart. And I've pulled apart quite a few. The coolant that soaked into the carbon, and/or solvent that was sprayed in the cylinders to keep 'em from rusting, make the buildup look worse than it is. This stuff would have been grey before it got wet. The shiny areas that are showing through tell me this stuff isn't as thick as y'all seem to think it is. I can clearly see the contour of the dish, though it is a softer dish than some other modular pistons I've seen.

The buildup comes primarily from oil burning in the cylinders. Running rich will not cause this. Running the engine hard does help to reduce the buildup, but just using WOT isn't enough. You have to drive it like you stole it. Get some heat in those cylinders. Find the rev limiter. Take longer trips.

I'm not nearly so concerned with the carbon buildup as I am with the amount of varnish I see in the timing chain area and in the cylinder head oil drainback passages. What kind of oil are you running in this engine? How long between changes? Please promise me this car's never been to a Jiffy Lube...

Varnish? Rust? Are we looking at the same pics?

Troubleshooting on line is difficult, and just because we have pics doesn't make anything more clear. I could not see half the stuff on my home computer, that I can see on my office display, plus I can zoom with clarity. Looking, you took some great pics for zooming, lot's of resolution on tap. Sadly, I don't think JACook is seeing the whole picture as clearly as I can.

There's no varnish present, but there is residue of engine oil and coolant I would expect ro see from pulling the head. I would not expect the wrench to add any rust inhibitor, for what purpose? What's going to rust? The oil present is rather clean too, a light brown maple syrup appearance. Most importantly, I can clearly see very thick carbon build up that has a texture to it. Looking says it's about 1/16" thick, that's rather fat, yes?

Cylinders 5 and 6 are most clear, zoom at 12 o'clock, and you see the impression of valves. Light impressions, but impressions nonetheless. I also strongly disagree with a lot of other remarks posted by JACook, but I won't get into that.

[looking97233]

SargntMac is correct nothing has been sprayed into the cylinders. The only thing there is a little oil and coolant that got dripped in when the head was pulled.

I think when she?(he?, I dunno haven't 'sexed' my MM. Maybe I'll take a good look under on Monday when I go to check progress) gets all cleaned up and back toghter and running. I'll spend a day to pull the injectors and take them down to Injector Service (a shop here in Portland) they will flow and pattern test them. (This I was told by a friend whom is a mechanic)

Rod.

[SergntMac]

Here's some pics of damaged pistons, y'all compare.

http://www.buckeye-illinois.com/pistons.htm

[Dennis Reinhart]

Here's some pics of damaged pistons, y'all compare.

http://www.buckeye-illinois.com/pistons.htm

HERE IS THE TSB FOR THE TICKING NOISE this apply AS WELL AS BLUE SMOKE ON START UP.

Now it does no specifically say smoke on start up, but you have to read the TSB it states that there will be damage to the valve guides, which of course will cause oil to leak in the cylinders, and some of you may wonder why they do not change both heads the answer is very simple the passenger head was made by a different company and they do not have this issue, only on the drivers side, so I hope this helps the members here I have already arranger to have member in Miami to bring the car and I will have the head replaced UNDER WARRANTY.


http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinharta...DERHEADTSB.jpg

[rayjay]

Dennis, just to play devils advocate, how do folks convince the average L/M dealer that this TSB applies to a Marauder? The dealer I bought my DTR through hasn't a clue what a MM is.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Dennis, just to play devils advocate, how do folks convince the average L/M dealer that this TSB applies to a Marauder? The dealer I bought my DTR through hasn't a clue what a MM is.

By the production date and casting number on the head