Updated Trilogy Kit

[snapon!]

Does anyone know what changes/upgrades have been made to the Trilogy kit since it was first released. I have read somewhere that the boost gauge is relocated , there is a tuner instead of a chip ( same programming? ), the bypass valve is upgraded ..... anything else ?

[MM03MOK]

You can put the boost gauge anywhere you want. That's your call. You can put a third gauge in front of the shifter. You can add a bracket on the A pillar. I haven't heard that it comes with a tuner, but I could be wrong. Best to reach out to Jerry Barnes or Tallboy (Chuck) if you have questions. That'll give you the answers right from the source.

[Bradley G]

Yes there have been changes/revisions to the kit.
It does come with a hand held tuner now, not a chip.
I would imagine after this many years some of the suppliers have changed too, but I don't know that specifcally.

[fastblackmerc]

You can put the boost gauge anywhere you want. That's your call. You can put a third gauge in front of the shifter. You can add a bracket on the A pillar. I haven't heard that it comes with a tuner, but I could be wrong. Best to reach out to Jerry Barnes or Tallboy (Chuck) if you have questions. That'll give you the answers right from the source.

What Mary said. Contact either Tallboy or Jerry Barnes @ Trilogy.

[justbob]

IAT2 upgrade.

[DOOM]

Kit comes with an X-cal2 and like biscuits said the IAT2 has been relocated.

[kariamack]

and what kit number did they start the improvement

[sailsmen]

The following was copied from another car club. I am not the one who wrote it.
12-10-2006, 02:55 AM
RWTD
Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3

First off, please let me state that I am not here to create and rift or issues. I'm only here to clarify any incorrect information, and I will do it with tact and professionalism.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikesMerc
The issue being discussed here is whether the Trilogy kit is inherently flawed because the IAT is at the MAF. Most of us contend that the answer is no.

In my professional opinion, I would state that is a flaw in the system. Futhermore, there is another inherent design flaw in the Marauder kit, and that being only one port that actually sees boost, and it's only used for a boost gauge. Therefore, the FRPS (fuel rail pressure sensor) does not reference boost, and it only sees intake vacuum (never boost). This isn't so much of an issue if the car is tuned for a specific boost level, but once boost is raised then it must ALWAYS be retuned, otherewise it'll lean out, regardless that it has a MAF sensor.

With proper FRPS boost referencing, and a properly tuned MAF curve, one would not have to have their vehicle returned for small changes in boost (generally changes of 2 to 6 psi either way). This also only applies if the spark table has been properly tuned, in both the spark values inputted, and also proper Load axis scaling, otherwise the pcm will continue to use the same spark values when increasing the boost, and that's not a good thing at all.

This is not a bash on Trilogy, but rather simple facts. I would hope that they would use information that myself and other prominent professional tuners give them to improve their kit even further, because it is a nice system with a LOT of potential and promise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MikesMerc
Powersurge already posted the fact that the OEM cobras also have there IAT sensors in the intake tube. The IAT2 (which is after the blower) doesn't do squat to the timing or tune.

Let me stress that the information you were given is 100% incorrect!

The IAT2 on a Lightning and on a Cobra, and on ANY supercharged Ford that has two IAT sensors, is specifically used to add/retard spark based on post-blower temps. This is fact. From the factory, when post-blower temps exceed 100 degrees F on either a Lightning or a Cobra, the pcm will use a multiplier, based from two different parameters, to determine how much spark to retard. The higher the post-blower temps get, the more spark is retarded. If one has done much datalogging on a Cobra and a Lightning, they will find that even with the very efficient intercoolers the IAT2 will generally always be above 100 degrees, regardless of outside weather. From the factory, Ford's programming is already retarding spark based on IAT2! I'm more than happy to post up screenshots of various parameters so that I can help to properly educate everyone to cause and effect. Please just let me know if you would like such.

So everyone will know, I study IAT temps *extensively*. It is something I do not only for work, and I do it daily, but also for fun. One of my product lines for intercooled vehicles is also heavily involved in this regard.


Quote:
A much better approach to tuning is to assume the intercooler is working as designed and then dictate exactly what you want to happen in the tune. Powersurge commented on this as well and I fully agree. So does Lidio. We spoke on this matter. "Adaptive" tuning is NOT the way you want to go with a high horsepower car.

"Assuming" is never smart when it comes to tuning. Using actual data supplied correctly is. Adaptive spark correction, due to changes in conditions, is 100% proper and correct.


Quote:
The reality of "well, what if my inter cooler stops working" is a silly reason to go through the time and energy to re locate the IAT sensor. I suppose I could have a sensor on my bumper that will warn me if my bumper falls off too...but is it really what I need?

I just do not understand the logic of comparing a bumper falling off to something as important as proper placement of an IAT sensor? If you go by that, then just take off the IAT sensor altogether. Who needs it, right?

There has been many Ford supercharged vehicles that have had their IC (intercooler) pumps up and fail. Not a month goes by that I do not get a Lightning to dyno tune that has a bad IC pump. Before I dyno tune them, I do check every supercharged vehicle with an IC pump for proper pump function, but one can also easily determine via a datalog if something is out of ordinary with the IC system. At times I'll get a vehicle in with the IC pump working, but somewhere along the line it stops working (not too often, but it does happen). Having my datalogging program set for me to be able to see post-blower temps can allow me to abort a dyno pull before its too late.


Quote:
Apparently the OEMs felt the risk was very very small.

Being that this applies to your first paragraph of your post, it doesn't any longer apply. However, I do want to state that Ford, and other OEM manufacturers, do feel that proper placement of the IAT sensor is very critical to proper function of the system as a whole. Ford put the IAT2 sensor on their supercharged cars to after the blower purposely, and for good reason, and exactly why I explained above.


Quote:
Zack, your answer is right there for you. Just ask Powersurge and Lidio what they do with IAT sensor readings for intercooled SC applications and you'll have an even more obvious answer.

I know Powersurge (Sal, if that is him), quite well. I'm actually surprised he didn't know that IAT2 is the one the pcm uses for spark function. Are you sure you didn't mistake him?


Quote:
Another thing to consider is that we haven't seen FoMoCo do a recall on the eaton Supercharged Cobra to update its use of the IAT2 just because they figured out how to do it for the new Shelby. Technology advanced and the IAT2 is now optimally placed. But that doesn't make the previous application unreliable or unsafe.

FoMoCo won't have to recall, because they already have it placed and utilized by the pcm properly, and that's the exact same way they are doing it even on the new Shelby (btw, which I have one on order; OMG I can't wait!).

I realize I've already disputed correctly the incorrect information you were given, and I don't want to keep reiterating the facts over and over, as that can be viewed as somewhat a slap. However, since you now know the information you were given was indeed incorrect, I'm sure you can feel more confident in knowing the realities of the matter.


Now, in regards to retuning a vehicle that has the IAT sensor moved to post-blower, someone, and I can't recall who, stated it would take a lot of work to redo the programming to work with the relocation. That's actually very incorrect, as well. Fact, it takes about 30 to 60 seconds to rescale the pcm's IAT parameters for relocation of the IAT sensor. There is actually only 1 that needs to be rescaled, tho better use of the pcm's IAT spark function can come by rescaling two parameters. Since I dyno tune so many Cobras and Lightnings, and various other supercharged vehicles, I know exactly where these parameters should be set.

Everyone, my information given is for the benefit of the entire aftermarket industry. Please understand that I would not give it out for any reason other than to help, especially when I see that it is needed. Proper education of individuals within this industry and community has always been my ultimate goal.

I do not plan to post here often, tho I hope I am welcome to give my professional expertise from time to time, because I can assure you that it is very valuable.

Very Sincerely,

James

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Last edited by RWTD; 12-10-2006 at 03:36 AM.

[sailsmen]

12-10-2006, 09:33 AM
RWTD
Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallboy
James, welcome aboard and thanks for your input! You are obviously quite knowledgeable, and I have a couple questions. Now, I know it's probably not that big of a deal to physically add the IAT2 to the system. But, there's no harness, so how and where do you tap into the PCM to add the info? Would the PCM even recognize it, since the car didn't have one from the factory?Wouldn't the car need a complete re-tune?

As we all know, from the factory, non-supercharged vehicles have their IAT placement either in the inlet tube or in the MAF. Some older vehicles have the IAT in the intake itself (i.e. ole skool Fox Mustang). All the pcm cares about is that there is an IAT sensor (otherwise a DTC will be set if there isn't one, and the default ACT temperature scalar will be used to help preserve safety (which is 100 degrees from the factory). It doesn't realize if it is before or after the intake.

In my prior post, I stated this:


Quote:
Now, in regards to retuning a vehicle that has the IAT sensor moved to post-blower, someone, and I can't recall who, stated it would take a lot of work to redo the programming to work with the relocation. That's actually very incorrect, as well. Fact, it takes about 30 to 60 seconds to rescale the pcm's IAT parameters for relocation of the IAT sensor. There is actually only 1 that needs to be rescaled, tho better use of the pcm's IAT spark function can come by rescaling two parameters. Since I dyno tune so many Cobras and Lightnings, and various other supercharged vehicles, I know exactly where these parameters should be set.

The main parameter that needs to be rescaled is the "Spark Retard for ACT" function (ACT = IAT). From the factory, it looks like this:


Code:
ACT Advance
254 -150
150 -50
90 10
76 36
50 50
-256 50
-256 50The value on the left if ACT temp, and the value on the right is a multiplier that is multiplied by a value from the "Spark Retard ACT Multiplier" table. This table is comprised of 6 columns and 5 rows. On the X-axis, there is Load values (calculated by the pcm based on the MAF readings), and on the Y-axis there are RPM values. For an example, from the factory, if RPM is 4492.8, Load is 0.898 or higher, and ACT is 90 degrees, then the amount of spark retarded would 2.535 degrees. If we increase the ACT to value to 150 degrees, then you'd have 7.605 degrees of spark being retarded from the spark calculation.

All in all, IAT spark functions by the pcm are really simple, and *very* easy to adjust. With some minor datalogging, one could figure exactly what to rescale it to, and an excellent start would be to use the factory '03/'04 Cobra values.


Quote:
The Trilogy kit has outsold all others combined by a wide, wide margin, and I have yet to hear of any inherent problems. I know more than a few nationally known tuners who have custom-tuned many of these cars, and it was never mentioned before. Thanks in advance for your answers.

That's great to hear! I would expect this, especially considering that PDB (positive displacement blower) systems are the most popular supercharger systems lately, especially when it comes to a heavier vehicle. There isn't anything like the rush one gets at all throttle positions with a PDB setup!

In regards to these particular situations that have been being discussed lately (IAT placement, and no FRPS boost referencing), naturally these kits can still perform well when they are tuned for a given boost level. However, changes in weather can and will affect the tuning, especially the spark and the afr, and changes in boost will obviously affect it as well. All anyone wants is an entire system that works in a way that can correct for changes in conditions, and do it with safety in mind.

This subject has been basically beat to death on multiple forums for many years. It's been expertly discussed why there should be IAT placement of post-blower, and why there should be boost referencing by the FRPS. However, you would be so very surprised at all these so called "expert tuners" who actually don't care, and many that do not give it any more thought than the misinformed consumer. People will always continue to choose to ignore the facts and/or rationale.

Sincerely,

James

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Last edited by RWTD; 12-10-2006 at 09:46 AM.

12-10-2006, 04:52 PM
RWTD
Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3

Well said, Jerry!



Quote:
Originally Posted by MikesMerc
This is indeed good information!!

Although I would still want to verify a lot of what has been stated, the case made is a strong one!

As for the Cobra IAT2, yes, it was Powersurge (although I do not know his real name) that stated it did not effect timing. He stated this several times on another site. More importantly, when you do search around the forums, you see this referenced all the time by many people. Perhaps this is because the use of the IAT2 was not as developed back a few years ago? I do know this though, when the Cobras came out, there were many tuners ignoring IAT2 all together. Even the industry rags like MM&FF talked about it. Urban legend then?

Whomever Powersurge is, as I explained earlier, he is mistaken, completely.

Yeah, definitely urban legend. Back with the 1999 Lightning came out, I bought one (have owned a '99, '01, and an '02), and I did the same when the 2003 Cobra came out (have owned two 2003 Cobras, and still have one). One of the first things I did, aside from fuel changes, was to revamp the entire spark curve of those vehicles, which also included the "Spark Retard for ACT" function. IAT functions have been known about for at least since the early 90s when mainstream EFI tuning surfaced.

Sincerely,

James

[Bradley G]

I am not relocating the IAT sensor for my 2.8" pulley & retune.
I spoke to Jerry yesterday, He has not done it on either Trilogy car #1 or on Trilogy car # 2.
He offered me the Free kit and said, if I ever take the motor apart that would be a good time.
My car has almost 99 thousand miles , The Kit has been on since 35 .
I also not installing the sensor, that alerts me if the bumpers fall off.

[sailsmen]

When your intercooler pump fails it's not your bumper that will fall off.
You might want to look into a new intercooler pump while you are making the mods.

[Bradley G]

I guess my IC pump is going to have it's work cut out.
Jerry says maybe three guys have asked for the relocate kit.

When your intercooler pump fails it's not your bumper that will fall off.
You might want to look into a new intercooler pump while you are making the mods.

[RocsMerc]

FYI ; AIT 2 relocate unnecessary

I am not relocating the IAT sensor for my 2.8" pulley & retune.
I spoke to Jerry yesterday, He has not done it on either Trilogy car #1 or on Trilogy car # 2.
He offered me the Free kit and said, if I ever take the motor apart that would be a good time.
My car has almost 99 thousand miles , The Kit has been on since 35 .
I also not installing the sensor, that alerts me if the bumpers fall off.

I bought Trilogy kit #39 used recently and haven't installed it yet. This old kit does not relocate the IAT sensor. I've spoken to Jerry on the phone before (although not about this topic) and I'm sure he's a great guy who's dedicated to his work and stands behind his products. However, when I install it, I will drill and tap my intake manifold with the lightning IAT sensor. I have two reasons for wanting doing this, one of which has nothing to do with the Trilogy kit. The first reason is I have a lightning 90mm MAF sitting in my garage that I want to put on my JLT intake just because the smaller stock MAF in my opinion looks odd on the large JLT pipes. The lightning MAF has no IAT sensor in it so it would need to be relocated to somewhere anyway. The second reason is the original owner of this kit blew his engine. I know for a fact he was running the stock Trilogy pulley and I'm pretty sure (although I'm not certain) that he was running the tune that came with the kit. Either the tune wasn't good, his engine (which was still under the Ford warranty) had a preexisting issue, or something with his intercooling system failed. I have no way of knowing what happened, but I'm thinking the latter since the entire intercooling system was missing when he gave the kit away.

I can completely understand why someone who already installed it would not want to redo everything as well as retune their car when everything is working fine. I'm guilty of that myself. (Did you see my thread about my blown rear end?) However, I see no logical reason to advise people to stay away from this mod. An electrical motor reaching the end of it's lifecycle is a stupid reason to need a whole new engine no matter how unlikely it actually is. Even if every Trilogy kit ever made never had an intercooler pump failure, it's still not impossible. Maybe it won't be the pump that fails. Maybe the relays that operate the pump get wet. Maybe the fuse that runs the pump blows. Maybe a coolant line is slowly leaking and the reservoir is never toped off. Maybe the positive contact point in the fuse box or the ground becomes oxidize.

The fact that Trilogy #1 and #2 don't have this mod and run fine (as well as many other happy Trilogy owners) is irrelevant. That's the equivalent of me saying "I bought my car new with a blown fuse and I stuck a piece of metal in the fuse socket. I have 100k on the car now and never had a problem with it." It wouldn't matter if 100 other Marauders did the same thing and never had a problem. It wouldn't matter if Steve Babcock said that all blue Marauders came from Ford with a piece of metal instead of a fuse in that socket and they never had a problem. Those facts wouldn't make replacing that piece of metal with a real fuse unnecessary or a bad idea. I'm sure there's a fuse in our fusebox obscure enough that no one has ever blown it. That still wouldn't make that fuse unnecessary. Even if you choose not to replace that fuse on your car because of the lack of issues and Steve Babcock's endorsement, why would you advise people not to do it for themselves?

[Bradley G]

You have no other logical choice on that decision,of relocating the IAT sensor.
Nice to know all the parts , even the re-machining of those parts will all be provided for no charge, if you chose.
This is one of many examples that Jerry Barnes is a stand up guy, who will spend his hard earned money on you when you have not spent any with him.

Feels good HUH?, like you might want to be his customer ?
As far as your analogy with the blown fuse, I really don't agree with you.
The kit and tuning as delivered is not flawed as you insinuate.
The numbers speak for themselves.

[snapon!]

With the relocation of the IAT sensor there has to have been some changes to the tune as well. Has anyone noticed that the newer kit owners are posting dyno numbers about 20HP higher than the original kits.This would make sense as the tune could be slightly "sharper" and still be considered very "safe". I am NOT implying that the original kit was flawed - it has been proven and later "refined" .