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  #16  
Old 10-08-2007, 07:24 AM
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I can't see your vendor forum.
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  #17  
Old 10-08-2007, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by wchain View Post
Ford didn't make a P71 in 1988.
'P71', 'police interceptor', whatever - it was town of Wellesley's car #1410, black & white, repainted Maaco dark blue. What made it better than average was the rug, split bench in dark blue velour, and the big motor

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13.83 @ 100 best race gas effort

Adopted June 6, 2007 with 99,967 miles - 300 A build date 8/14/02

Vericom VC-200 Test Data:
15.46 @ 94.2 (bone stock)
15.33 @ NA (K&N FIPK= -.13)
15.09 @ 95 (Lidio's Tune= -.24)
14.84 @ 96.5 (FMS 4.10s= -.25)
14.74 @ 97 (Steeda UDs= -.10)
14.60 @ 98 (Lidio's Race Gas Tune= -.14)
All times averaged and corrected

All VC-200 data acquired at a top secret test facility
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  #18  
Old 10-08-2007, 08:12 AM
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Having seen just about all the "fuel saving" devices that have been around since the Fifties (that's 1950's), I have found only one that ever had a beneficial effect. It was manufactured locally here in NJ, and, because it's carb'ed based, can't be used on modern day cars. It was basically a Ni-Cad series of mesh screens and had an electrolyte pressed into the carb base gasket connecting to the Ni_Cad screens that hung underneath the throttle plates. What it did was to make the gasoline charge more negative with respect to the block. It was basically a catalytic device.

The net effect of the Ni-Cad screens was to increase mileage by anywhere from 10 to 25%. I was more than pleased with the results, since my cars of the time (in the '70's and 80's) were real gas guzzlers.

Most of you know, I'm sure, that the ignition spark output is negative going with respect to the engine block. This was a phenomenon found in the early days of car-dom, and it affects gas mileage significantly. What this device did was to enhance the effect. Even as late as the 1970's, Mobil (now Exxon/Mobil) was studying these effects for the car manufacturers.

Can this same "effect" be used today? In theory - yes. In practice - no. It's very hard to impart a different voltage charge on the current systems of fuel injection. Besides, electronics has more than made up for this method.

As for the PCV gas separater discussed in this thread, notice it uses a "catalytic" separater to do the dirty work. From what I see, it's possible to impart a differential charge to the separated gas that is returned to be re-burned. Therefor, by dumb luck, there might be an increase in gas mileage - and not necessarily for the reasons given by the manufacturer.

On the other hand, if one uses Mobil 1 or another good synthetic oil in the crankcase, it has been shown that blow-by emissions are reduced significantly. Synthetic oil doesn't burn and produce vapors when left on cylinder walls. It is possible to pull in oil through leaky valve stem seals, but this generally exits primarily through the exhaust system.

I could see this device being basically useless when used with synthetic oils in the crankcase. The rest of you basically have called it for what it is. I wouldn't say that it absolutely didn't have some effect, but I would say it would be minimal.
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  #19  
Old 10-08-2007, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racorcey View Post
Having seen just about all the "fuel saving" devices that have been around since the Fifties (that's 1950's), I have found only one that ever had a beneficial effect.
Hey Racer,

Did you ever test the Condensator?

fastcar
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13.83 @ 100 best race gas effort

Adopted June 6, 2007 with 99,967 miles - 300 A build date 8/14/02

Vericom VC-200 Test Data:
15.46 @ 94.2 (bone stock)
15.33 @ NA (K&N FIPK= -.13)
15.09 @ 95 (Lidio's Tune= -.24)
14.84 @ 96.5 (FMS 4.10s= -.25)
14.74 @ 97 (Steeda UDs= -.10)
14.60 @ 98 (Lidio's Race Gas Tune= -.14)
All times averaged and corrected

All VC-200 data acquired at a top secret test facility
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  #20  
Old 10-09-2007, 07:22 AM
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Glad it works for you. There have been many changes in automotive technology from 1995 to 2003. Please do a real-world test with it installed on your MM and let us know what your gains are.

I also need to know if this would violate the federal laws regarding monkeying around with the pollution control system. Can our legal dept comment on that?
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  #21  
Old 10-09-2007, 07:37 AM
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Not so harsh!

Many of us use an air/oil separator in our PCV system to keep gunk out of the SC and IC. It looks like any other air/oil separator out there with the exception of a larger bowl and different kind of filter.

It's the 'hype' that's freaking everyone out. It's true that oil will reduce your octane through the PCV. This is another reason I chose to add and air/oil separator.

It's kinda pricey for 179, considering you can get a Moroso for 100, a Jeg's for 50 and make one yourself for about 30.

The idea is sound. The hype is too much but it seems it WOULD do it's job. Fuel savings? I dunno. Cleaner engine and less octane loss due to junk, I believe it.

Would I buy it? Nope. Made my own.

Thanx, though for bringing it to our attention. I too, am sick and tired of the 'dogpile' mentality when a member brings us another option!
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  #22  
Old 10-09-2007, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magindat View Post
Many of us use an air/oil separator in our PCV system to keep gunk out of the SC and IC. It looks like any other air/oil separator out there with the exception of a larger bowl and different kind of filter.

It's the 'hype' that's freaking everyone out. It's true that oil will reduce your octane through the PCV. This is another reason I chose to add and air/oil separator.

It's kinda pricey for 179, considering you can get a Moroso for 100, a Jeg's for 50 and make one yourself for about 30.

The idea is sound. The hype is too much but it seems it WOULD do it's job. Fuel savings? I dunno. Cleaner engine and less octane loss due to junk, I believe it.

Would I buy it? Nope. Made my own.

Thanx, though for bringing it to our attention. I too, am sick and tired of the 'dogpile' mentality when a member brings us another option!
I made my own also, Rich. The desiccant beads make me re-think my design, though.
Perhaps I'll add this to my winter project list.... it's getting long.
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  #23  
Old 10-09-2007, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_Long View Post
I made my own also, Rich. The desiccant beads make me re-think my design, though.
Perhaps I'll add this to my winter project list.... it's getting long.
I agree. After reading the site carefully, it seems the desiccant is the key. Otherwise, it appears it's just like any other separator.
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  #24  
Old 10-09-2007, 05:34 PM
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Save the Planet!!...free America!!!...

There is a device called a "Flux Capacitor" that will run your car on almost any organic compound, even banana peels!!

It can be installed in any automobile, but is still experimental!!! The Big Three car manufacturers and the Big Oil companies are trying to stop it!!!!

It was featured in a Hollywood movie, and will probably be available in the near future, just in time to save the planet, and save America from foreign oil dependance, too!!!!!

Flux Capacitor!!!!!:

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  #25  
Old 10-09-2007, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magindat View Post
I agree. After reading the site carefully, it seems the desiccant is the key. Otherwise, it appears it's just like any other separator.
Since there is a desiccant involved is there a warning to not eat the desiccant?

Seriously.... if this really worked ie. gave you better gas mileage don't you think all the auto manufacturer's would be all over this like stink on ***** or white on rice?? If it worked it could be massed produced for less than $5.00 and you'd see it on every car on the road with one.....
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  #26  
Old 10-10-2007, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_Long View Post
I made my own also, Rich. The desiccant beads make me re-think my design, though.
Perhaps I'll add this to my winter project list.... it's getting long.
Hey Rich,

I have a friend that has been making these for several years and he use bronze wool as the media and it works just fine!!! Clean it at normal oil changes and keep going!!!

Marauderjack
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  #27  
Old 10-10-2007, 04:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreekGod View Post
any organic compound, even banana peels!!

That was 'Mr Fusion'. Good grief, if your gonna be a smart azz, at least get it right!!!!
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  #28  
Old 10-10-2007, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastblackmerc View Post
Since there is a desiccant involved is there a warning to not eat the desiccant?

Seriously.... if this really worked ie. gave you better gas mileage don't you think all the auto manufacturer's would be all over this like stink on ***** or white on rice?? If it worked it could be massed produced for less than $5.00 and you'd see it on every car on the road with one.....
Re-read my post. Gas savings? Dunno. But I do believe it keeps gunk out of the motor. Why else would performance shops offer a separator? BTW, it's VERY common in piston-powered aviation to have an air/oil separator.

I agree they could me made for next to nothing on a massive scale. What if they were suddenly required on all cars? How many engines would be shot from people not emptying the can and sucking straight used oil into their intake plenum? I don't think it's a reluctance to save gas or prolong engine life. I think it's a reluctance to replace motors due to owner stupidity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marauderjack View Post
Hey Rich,

I have a friend that has been making these for several years and he use bronze wool as the media and it works just fine!!! Clean it at normal oil changes and keep going!!!

Marauderjack
Yep, aviation commonly uses stainless steel wool. All it does is give the vapors a place to 'condense' and then drip into a catch can rather than go into the motor.
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Lemonade - living with Fruit Punch - in Blackmobile's Garage...
FIT Procharger Kit #31 - 3.7 pulley - 9 PSI
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  #29  
Old 10-11-2007, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racorcey View Post
I could see this device being basically useless when used with synthetic oils in the crankcase. The rest of you basically have called it for what it is. I wouldn't say that it absolutely didn't have some effect, but I would say it would be minimal.
Everyone has called it what it is? Man, that's too much. You and everyone else that has piled on haven't even TRIED one, and you have it all figured out? Nonsense.

I shouldn't be too hard on you, though. At least you admit that there is a device that could generate a 10-25% improvement in fuel economy.

But be warned: If you try one on your car, and it works, don't start a thread about it here, unless you want to be at the bottom of a pig pile!

I must say, though, about your device, to state that the ONLY devices likely to work must rely on the charge differential technique you mention seems a little bit narrow. The internal combustion engine has many systems, that employ countless principles, the possibility that there is ONLY ONE WAY to improve on it is patently absurd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ckadiddle View Post
Glad it works for you. There have been many changes in automotive technology from 1995 to 2003. Please do a real-world test with it installed on your MM and let us know what your gains are.

I also need to know if this would violate the federal laws regarding monkeying around with the pollution control system. Can our legal dept comment on that?
Thanks, ckadiddle for the suggestion. For all the cynics, and smart asses here I've decided to do just that (present company excluded, of course.

I may start a new thread just on the test, to field suggestions on how to conduct it, so no turkeys can impune the results (when they find they don't match up to their pig-headed preconceptions)

As for engine technology changing a lot from 1995 to 2003, I'm not sure. The mod motor in my 95 P-71 is almost identical to the one in a 2003 P-71. Very few improvements, really. The biggest one is better cylinder heads.

The Condensator is CARB certified for emissions in CALIFORNIA. It reduces emissions, and will not violate federal law. Trust me, with the kinds of mods being performed at this forum, the last one you have to worry about getting in trouble for is the Condensator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich_Long View Post
I made my own also, Rich. The desiccant beads make me re-think my design, though.
Perhaps I'll add this to my winter project list.... it's getting long.
The Silica Gel adsorbant material is a reason this device was patentable, and why it works so much better than simple, mechanical air/oil separators. Here are more details from their website:

Technical Description

The heart of the system is the Silica Gel Catalyst, (adsorbant separator), the element which, by itself, causes a change of state without itself being changed. The operating principle is that of adsorption. From Ephraimk’s Inorganic Chemistry:

“Silica Gel adsorbs vapors other than water vapor and this property is utilized in the recovery of solvent vapors when diluted with large volumes of air or other gases.”

Such is the empirical nature of silica gel as an adsorptive compound long recognized in solvent recovery system, i.e., the separation of lighter molecular weight solvents from airborne masses. From Smith’s Chemistry:

“Incompletely dehydrated silicic acid, containing 5 to 7% of water (silica gel) is employed as an adsorbent material for recovering valuable vapors (such as sulfur dioxide, oxides of nitrogen and volatile organic solvents) from the issuing gasses in many large scale industrial processes. The adsorbed vapors are given up on heating and the gel is ready for renewed use. Silica Gel is also used in the deodorizing of petroleum oils, and as a catalyst. One cubic inch of the gel is said to present a surface area of about 50,000 square feet.”

It is evident that silica gel serves as a catalyst, adsorbant and separator, where the adsorbant qualities are described as a “condensing” property. The “condensing” mechanism is actually one of electrovalent attraction as opposed to simple condensation. It is empirically assumed that the lighter solvents extracted from the mass are passed back into the airflow separate from the mass. This accounts also for visual cleanliness of the catalyst (silica gel) after 30,000 miles of operation.


Silica Gel seems to be the ideal material to perform this function. Steel or bronze wool DO NOT have the same chemical, physical or electronic properties, much less the same surface area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fastblackmerc View Post
Since there is a desiccant involved is there a warning to not eat the desiccant?

Seriously.... if this really worked ie. gave you better gas mileage don't you think all the auto manufacturer's would be all over this like stink on ***** or white on rice?? If it worked it could be massed produced for less than $5.00 and you'd see it on every car on the road with one.....
Ha Ha. Not necessarily and yes - in that order.

One early proponent actually found out that it was GM that tried to sabotage his marketing efforts. You can read his experience here: http://highstrangeness.tv/articles/empower/empower.php

I don't think giant corporations always to the right thing, the best thing or even the smart thing. They seem motivated by one thing, and, ironically, often chase it the wrong way. I'm also not ready to write off the idea that the oil and auto industries may have something to gain from one another

I have a friend who worked for NASA back in the 1960s, and specifically worked on the Apollo program. He said when he graduated from MIT, his class mate decided to work for Ford, and tried to convince him to, also.

'You have to come to work at Ford!' He went on: 'You won't believe all the ideas they are working on. The stuff is just amazing!' However, after careful consideration, my friend, decided to work at NASA.

The years went by, and after he had helped to put a man on the moon, he one day saw his friend, again. He was deflated. 'Not even one of the ideas we developed at Ford was ever implemented', he stated.

If we ran the companies, I bet cars would be A LOT different today.

fastcar
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13.83 @ 100 best race gas effort

Adopted June 6, 2007 with 99,967 miles - 300 A build date 8/14/02

Vericom VC-200 Test Data:
15.46 @ 94.2 (bone stock)
15.33 @ NA (K&N FIPK= -.13)
15.09 @ 95 (Lidio's Tune= -.24)
14.84 @ 96.5 (FMS 4.10s= -.25)
14.74 @ 97 (Steeda UDs= -.10)
14.60 @ 98 (Lidio's Race Gas Tune= -.14)
All times averaged and corrected

All VC-200 data acquired at a top secret test facility
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  #30  
Old 10-12-2007, 09:25 AM
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GreekGod GreekGod is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastcar View Post
...
Technical Description

The heart of the system is the Silica Gel Catalyst, (adsorbant separator), the element which, by itself, causes a change of state without itself being changed. The operating principle is that of adsorption. From Ephraimk’s Inorganic Chemistry:...
Did you mean "Ephraim’s Inorganic Chemistry"?
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1957 Custom 2 dr Sedan, 1979 F-series 14' U-Haul 330 XD, 1979 F150 4X4 428 PI/CJ heads/NP 435/4:11 axles-rear Det. Lkr., 1993 Grand Marquis, Y2K CVPI supercharged 5.4, 2003 MM

The more I learn, the more I find out I don't know.

Confusion will be my epitaph...

Home of the Berserker Marauder, one of the ancient Norse warriors legendary for working themselves into a frenzy before a battle and fighting with reckless savagery and insane fury, held to be invulnerable...shirtless regardless of wounds...(possibly due to ingestion of psychotropic and hallucinatory drugs such as Fly Agaric Mushrooms)...

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