MercuryMarauder.net Forums    

Go Back   MercuryMarauder.net Forums > The Garage > Shop Talk

Shop Talk Visit Shop Talk for all your general technical discussions regarding the Marauder!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-15-2018, 01:05 PM
lifespeed lifespeed is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Jose
Age: 50
Posts: 2,540
Trader: (1)
cam trigger wheel phase altered by degreeing cams?

Lowndex is getting some cam sensor error codes, maybe he can post the number. What could cause this?

While degreeing the cams changes the angle of the camshafts relative to the crank and crank trigger, what does this do to the relationship between the crank trigger and cam trigger? What happens to the phase of the trigger wheel when the cams are degreed? My memory of the timing gear setup isn't sharp enough to remember how the trigger wheels are referenced to the crank. From what I remember from Livernois, I think they use Cloyes timing gears with the Ford Racing timing kit.

When degreeing a cam, does the angle of the cam trigger wheel change relative to the crank? Maybe the computer is smart enough to notice a change in phase relationship between crank and cam signals and throw a code? Never heard of anything like this happening, but not too many here mess with degreeing cams.
__________________
Lifespeed

2004 Silver Birch Marauder 130K miles
Wilwood Aero6 F, NMDP R brakes, Penske 7500DA shocks, Hypercoil 600lbs F and Grand Marquis R air springs, Addco tubular sway bars, Metco control & Watts, 31 sp axles, Stainless Works cat-back exhaust, Lidio tune, American Racing AR883 9.3" 50mm F 10" 59mm R 20" wheels, Pirelli P-Zero 265/35-20, 275/40-20 tires

Coming soon: Livernois 5.0L stroker, ADTR/Vortech V2 intercooled SC, Silverfox trans and Circle D converter
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-15-2018, 03:15 PM
mm svt mm svt is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Mishawaka, In
Posts: 631
Trader: (0)
I’d say the timing needs redone, comp cams makes a 4v adjustable cam gear set, it’s good for up to 12* advance or retard. These gears make timing advances easier.

https://www.lethalperformance.com/co...iABEgJFM_D_BwE
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-15-2018, 03:44 PM
Seneca's Avatar
Seneca Seneca is offline
Procharged Marauder
 

Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Maryland
Age: 35
Posts: 1,385
Trader: (4)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
Lowndex is getting some cam sensor error codes, maybe he can post the number. What could cause this?

While degreeing the cams changes the angle of the camshafts relative to the crank and crank trigger, what does this do to the relationship between the crank trigger and cam trigger? What happens to the phase of the trigger wheel when the cams are degreed? My memory of the timing gear setup isn't sharp enough to remember how the trigger wheels are referenced to the crank. From what I remember from Livernois, I think they use Cloyes timing gears with the Ford Racing timing kit.

When degreeing a cam, does the angle of the cam trigger wheel change relative to the crank? Maybe the computer is smart enough to notice a change in phase relationship between crank and cam signals and throw a code? Never heard of anything like this happening, but not too many here mess with degreeing cams.
Who degreed the cams? Does it seem to.run okay other then codes?
__________________
04 twin turbo Marauder custom made by myself 😁
3800stall freddy Brown 4stbe trans 31 spline rear
601rwhp 592rwtq @19psi
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-15-2018, 03:45 PM
RubberCtyRauder's Avatar
RubberCtyRauder RubberCtyRauder is offline
Weißbirke Plünderer
 

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Northeast OH
Posts: 7,131
Trader: (11)
..........
__________________
2004 SB Ported Trilogy 48
Has supporting mods and stuff
Thanks to Marty O for his help in updating this car.

R.I.P.
Rex "SC Cheesehead"

Last edited by RubberCtyRauder; 05-16-2018 at 04:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-15-2018, 04:00 PM
Lowndex's Avatar
Lowndex Lowndex is offline
Middle Age Crisis Member
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,244
Trader: (3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
Who degreed the cams? Does it seem to.run okay other then codes?

KC at BRG Racing.


Runs awesome.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-15-2018, 04:06 PM
Lowndex's Avatar
Lowndex Lowndex is offline
Middle Age Crisis Member
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,244
Trader: (3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by RubberCtyRauder View Post
why is a speed, race shop asking cam degreeing errors? not being an a $$ here, but someone has been paying an awful lot of money to not have the shop figure it out. longest engine build in history of building motors, with price tag to boot

This is about the Marauder ECU throwing an error codes (P1174, P1175) unfamiliar to the mechanic on duty. The wiring, connectors and fuses are all new, but have been double checked from ECU to sensor.

Here is what I found with Google:
http://p1174.obdcodes.me/mercury-marauder
http://p1175.obdcodes.me/mercury-marauder

Looking for Panther expertise! Whomever gives me the correct answer gets $$$!

KC is on vacation in Montana. So, I can sit around two weeks and wait or get some help now from our members.

Last edited by Lowndex; 05-15-2018 at 04:19 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-15-2018, 04:20 PM
lifespeed lifespeed is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Jose
Age: 50
Posts: 2,540
Trader: (1)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seneca View Post
Who degreed the cams? Does it seem to.run okay other then codes?

That's a good question for Lowndex. Livernois didn't do the long block, right? KC assembled the heads to the block and degreed the cams?


As far as I can tell the reluctor bump on the timing gear for the cam position sensor does not move with cam degree adjustments. The adjustment is at the interface to the cam, leaving the relationship between the crank sensor and cam sensor unchanged with cam adjustment.


However, adjusting cam timing (or plain old making a mistake) by moving the chain off a tooth would change the relationship between the cam and crank signals.
__________________
Lifespeed

2004 Silver Birch Marauder 130K miles
Wilwood Aero6 F, NMDP R brakes, Penske 7500DA shocks, Hypercoil 600lbs F and Grand Marquis R air springs, Addco tubular sway bars, Metco control & Watts, 31 sp axles, Stainless Works cat-back exhaust, Lidio tune, American Racing AR883 9.3" 50mm F 10" 59mm R 20" wheels, Pirelli P-Zero 265/35-20, 275/40-20 tires

Coming soon: Livernois 5.0L stroker, ADTR/Vortech V2 intercooled SC, Silverfox trans and Circle D converter
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-15-2018, 04:22 PM
Lowndex's Avatar
Lowndex Lowndex is offline
Middle Age Crisis Member
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,244
Trader: (3)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
That's a good question for Lowndex. Livernois didn't do the long block, right? KC assembled the heads to the block and degreed the cams?
Correct.



As far as I can tell the reluctor bump on the timing gear for the cam position sensor does not move with cam degree adjustments. The adjustment is at the interface to the cam, leaving the relationship between the crank sensor and cam sensor unchanged with cam adjustment.


However, adjusting cam timing (or plain old making a mistake) by moving the chain off a tooth would change the relationship between the cam and crank signals.
I will pass your input along.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-15-2018, 04:32 PM
lifespeed lifespeed is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Jose
Age: 50
Posts: 2,540
Trader: (1)
In the dinosaur days of pushrod big block Chevys it was not unusual to use not only the offset keyways to degree a cam, sometimes the chain was deliberately jumped a tooth to arrive at the right cam timing due to tolerances in manufacturing of the crank and cam.


If the gear alignment is off by a tooth the crank vs. cam signal timing will be altered, even though the cam timing may (or may not) be degreed correctly. So it may still run well. The cam position sensor only needs to tell the PCM compression stroke vs exhaust, it doesn't need to be super accurate to fire the injector and coil correctly. Accuracy comes from the crank trigger.


However, cars are supposed to use their sensors and computer to be somewhat self-diagnostic. I know for a fact if the timing chain in my 3.6L DOHC Cadillac V6 stretches beyond acceptable limits, it will detect it using the cam and crank signal relationship and throw a code.


I guess there is a possibility your cam gear is a tooth off, and the PCM notices. I would like to get a better definition of those codes than that web link you posted, if possible.
__________________
Lifespeed

2004 Silver Birch Marauder 130K miles
Wilwood Aero6 F, NMDP R brakes, Penske 7500DA shocks, Hypercoil 600lbs F and Grand Marquis R air springs, Addco tubular sway bars, Metco control & Watts, 31 sp axles, Stainless Works cat-back exhaust, Lidio tune, American Racing AR883 9.3" 50mm F 10" 59mm R 20" wheels, Pirelli P-Zero 265/35-20, 275/40-20 tires

Coming soon: Livernois 5.0L stroker, ADTR/Vortech V2 intercooled SC, Silverfox trans and Circle D converter
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-15-2018, 05:07 PM
musclemerc's Avatar
musclemerc musclemerc is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Dirty South
Age: 46
Posts: 3,307
Trader: (27)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifespeed View Post
Lowndex is getting some cam sensor error codes, maybe he can post the number. What could cause this?

While degreeing the cams changes the angle of the camshafts relative to the crank and crank trigger, what does this do to the relationship between the crank trigger and cam trigger? What happens to the phase of the trigger wheel when the cams are degreed? My memory of the timing gear setup isn't sharp enough to remember how the trigger wheels are referenced to the crank. From what I remember from Livernois, I think they use Cloyes timing gears with the Ford Racing timing kit.

When degreeing a cam, does the angle of the cam trigger wheel change relative to the crank? Maybe the computer is smart enough to notice a change in phase relationship between crank and cam signals and throw a code? Never heard of anything like this happening, but not too many here mess with degreeing cams.
I degreed my cams the old fashion way by grinding and cutting new keys. Never had any issues with the triggers.

I have 98 cobra cams FYI.

Last edited by musclemerc; 05-15-2018 at 05:17 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 05-15-2018, 06:13 PM
Lowndex's Avatar
Lowndex Lowndex is offline
Middle Age Crisis Member
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,244
Trader: (3)
A new error code reported: P0340.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-15-2018, 06:29 PM
lifespeed lifespeed is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Jose
Age: 50
Posts: 2,540
Trader: (1)
P0340 - Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor Circuit Malfunction (Bank 1) The test fails when the PCM can no longer detect the signal from the CMP sensor on Bank 1.

There is no listing in the service manual for P1174, 1175.

Maybe swap the sensor for a known good one? While it is out rotate the engine to TDC on #1 and look through the hole for the trigger tooth.
__________________
Lifespeed

2004 Silver Birch Marauder 130K miles
Wilwood Aero6 F, NMDP R brakes, Penske 7500DA shocks, Hypercoil 600lbs F and Grand Marquis R air springs, Addco tubular sway bars, Metco control & Watts, 31 sp axles, Stainless Works cat-back exhaust, Lidio tune, American Racing AR883 9.3" 50mm F 10" 59mm R 20" wheels, Pirelli P-Zero 265/35-20, 275/40-20 tires

Coming soon: Livernois 5.0L stroker, ADTR/Vortech V2 intercooled SC, Silverfox trans and Circle D converter
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-15-2018, 08:39 PM
justgod's Avatar
justgod justgod is offline
Senior Member
 

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: NH
Age: 50
Posts: 131
Trader: (0)
Any wiring harness chaffing on the back of the head? Never had issues after degreeing my aftermarket cams. Unless you have the TFS adjustable crank gears, the exhaust gear trigger position doesn’t change. It still wouldn’t cause codes unless something was really wrong. You have to remember, there’s a lot of ponies out there with the same cam/crank sensors running some crazy cams without these issues
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-15-2018, 09:25 PM
Mr. Man's Avatar
Mr. Man Mr. Man is offline
GAME OVER, YOU LOSE!
 

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Moreau Island
Posts: 11,265
Trader: (2)
Call Mo's maybe Jeff has a thought.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-15-2018, 11:02 PM
Lowndex's Avatar
Lowndex Lowndex is offline
Middle Age Crisis Member
 

Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Northern California
Posts: 2,244
Trader: (3)
Thank you, all. I will try Lifespeed's idea. If not resolved, time to call a Panther expert: Mo.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Regarding Info on Degreeing Cams massacre Shop Talk 10 02-06-2017 11:34 AM
Cam Timing/Degreeing Cams massacre Shop Talk 29 04-15-2011 05:16 AM
Altered My Drivers Seat burt ragio Community Discussion 7 06-27-2010 06:07 AM
Project Bling Phase One Donny Carlson Community Discussion 18 06-11-2004 05:36 AM
New Stereo, Phase I mrogerc Community Discussion 4 03-24-2004 08:22 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:59 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2002 - 2017 - MercuryMarauder.net