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Old 10-24-2018, 10:21 PM
IndyMerc IndyMerc is offline
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2003 MM Rear end build guidance appreciated.

I have a 2003 with 146,000 miles and the rear end is leaking and the clutches are gone, after knowing about the axles and needing a rebuild anyway i decided to grab a core from a 2006 marquis.

The core is getting sent to sand blast and powder coat this weekend. I need to start ordering parts.

The only thing i planned on keeping from the donor core were the 31 spline axles and the housing,

I want to go with an eaton true track.

model #
Eaton 913A561 Detroit Truetrac 8.8" 31 Spline Differential

as far as gear choices are concerned Ive decided the gear ratio i want but on ordering the pinion spline i need advice,

I wanted to go with a set of US lightning gears and Ford 8.8" Ring and Pinion Installation Kit with Koyo ST41901 Inner Pinion Bearings but dont know if any are compatible, since I have not taken the car apart yet in case i still need to drive it for emergencies.

what other parts should I get?

the stock rear end looks in great shape and I feel confident the core and axles will hold up to the gear change and a simple tune.

after 15 years of working on turbo Mitsubishi's I picked this up last year and its just a totally different animal, I love driving the car and want to keep it as a driver for a long time, since this issue came up i am tackling it first and want to get her back on the road proper, and with the help of my neighbor a shop teacher I feel confident with quality parts the job can be done well, any help would be appreciated, I am located on the east side of Indianapolis for any fellow MM'ers.

Thanks in Advance, I look forward to having the car rebuilt over the next few years.
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:39 PM
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I have to start off by saying I’m not trying to be critical of your gear and bearing choices.... but I’m wondering why you wouldn’t use Ford Performance parts? They’re proven to be very reliable, I don’t understand why are you trying to reinvent something that’s been done millions of times?

I like your differential choice, I think you’ll be happy.

Here is a list I put together that might help:

https://www.mercurymarauder.net/foru...ad.php?t=88972
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Old 10-24-2018, 10:45 PM
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I too, came from the dsm/evo world.

Different animal indeed, from what I gather, an 8.8 is an 8.8. No matter the internal part, As long as it's advertised for the 8.8. then it should work. All that is needed for a rebuild is the l/r carrier bearings and races(2), pinion bearings and races (2) and correct shims for both the carrier and pinion. Marking compound to check the pattern, and a dial indicator setup for proper back lash, axle bearings / seals.

What gears are you going with? What are your plans for the car?

Not sure if I answered your question though lol

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Old 10-25-2018, 07:35 AM
IndyMerc IndyMerc is offline
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As I understand the higher the gear ratio the smaller the pinion bearing, and since I plan to do a higher hp N/A build over the next couple years, combined with the MM is a relatively heavy machine I would rather build it tough and have it last for the small extra cost. I wanted to go with the stronger steel allegedly used in the US gear lightning product.

I have nothing against ford parts but I have no reason to believe they are the best either. Given my overall experience with ford parts they seem to be about average to me, and in certain applications I tend to use them, I am more inclined to use ford parts for things I can change more easily that gearing in a rear end, depending on the garage available this can be a pretty big and messy job.

I myself am not trying to reinvent anything, just make the best selections for my budget from what the market has available.

I am open to suggestions and cases for why other gears may be better but I have a bit of an affinity for fine steels. Crown gears are just stratospheric in cost to justify.

My intended purpose is for it to last and have some sporty driving fun. I like it as a frequent to daily driver except in bad weather and have fun driving it. I like being able to keep up with and in most cases deal with modern heavy footed traffic.

my overall goals are a built up 450hp N/A engine

with a rugged 4 speed.

some suspension work, what the usual people have suggested in the forum,

a full LED conversion

and a red leather interior.

a full debadge, along with a 2008 marquis tail light and trunk swap.

1997 steering wheel.

I had 6 DSM's two with fully built motors one was a 4g64t. 1 frame off build. they were a lot of fun but I ended up with this and after driving this for about 2 years really fell in love with it. I love the DSM/Evo platforms and may pick one up still but Now that I have a v8 its really my preference.

Well I appreciate everyones input. I will consider everyones suggestions and experience in my parts order.

Why cant I Buy all new races?
I have a nice dial indicator setup. I have kept all the parts so far from the donor rear end. Just curious as to why Its a must to re use any old parts other than the obvious carrier bearings.

thanks for the parts list link, I will look all of those up tonight after work.
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Old 10-25-2018, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comin' in Hot View Post
... why you wouldn’t use Ford Performance parts? They’re proven to be very reliable, I don’t understand why are you trying to reinvent something that’s been done millions of times?

I like your differential choice, I think you’ll be happy.

Here is a list I put together that might help:

https://www.mercurymarauder.net/foru...ad.php?t=88972
+1 on this. This would be a very good option.
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  #6  
Old 10-25-2018, 07:43 AM
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I used Ford Performance ring and pinion and my installer didn't have to change any of the shims.
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Old 10-25-2018, 12:06 PM
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Are you using the stock mod motor and planing to build that up, from what I've heard, 450 is impossible na.
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Old 10-25-2018, 03:59 PM
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I know that there is at least two different carrier bearings out there. I think the difference is in the width. Not sure which one it is that we use.

I highly suggest a solid pinion spacer instead of the crush washer. A stud kit and girdle are nice upgrades as well.

I chose Yukon gear for my set up as I knocked half the teeth off my 4.30’s with the manual trans. That was back when it was only 460 RWHP. It’s been 704 for three years now without issue. I figured Yukon has a great name in the off road world and it wouldn’t hurt to try it. Glad I did.


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Cobra short block / ProCharger F1-A / Cog drive upgrade / Manley valves / Brian Tooley Racing valve springs / 80# inj. / -8 fuel line / -6 return / Aeromotive 340 pumps and regulator / 2012 GT500 TR6060 six speed / twin disc clutch / Driveshaft Shop GT500 upgraded CV joint shaft / BA5000 blow thru MAF/ 4.10's / Ford Racing 31 spline set up and Girdle / Metco D.S. safety loop / Stainless Works headers, cats, and everything else out back / ClassGlass hood / Bob's hood strut mod / Hurst line lock / Metco control arms / Addco front and rear sway bars / Monroe severe duty shocks all around / Race concepts rotors / Badgeless grille / 35% tint / FBM's interior LED kit and ambient lighting kit / Pioneer FB700 deck / kenwood speaker 4 Ch. / Rockford Fosgate 10" sub and amp / Kicker 6 X 8's all around / back up cam / bluetooth / Pioneer Xm / 704 RWHP 603 RWTQ tuned by Mo's Speedshop.
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  #9  
Old 10-25-2018, 09:16 PM
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minimarine09 minimarine09 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyMerc View Post
As I understand the higher the gear ratio the smaller the pinion bearing, and since I plan to do a higher hp N/A build over the next couple years, combined with the MM is a relatively heavy machine I would rather build it tough and have it last for the small extra cost. I wanted to go with the stronger steel allegedly used in the US gear lightning product.

I have nothing against ford parts but I have no reason to believe they are the best either. Given my overall experience with ford parts they seem to be about average to me, and in certain applications I tend to use them, I am more inclined to use ford parts for things I can change more easily that gearing in a rear end, depending on the garage available this can be a pretty big and messy job.

I myself am not trying to reinvent anything, just make the best selections for my budget from what the market has available.

I am open to suggestions and cases for why other gears may be better but I have a bit of an affinity for fine steels. Crown gears are just stratospheric in cost to justify.

My intended purpose is for it to last and have some sporty driving fun. I like it as a frequent to daily driver except in bad weather and have fun driving it. I like being able to keep up with and in most cases deal with modern heavy footed traffic.

my overall goals are a built up 450hp N/A engine

with a rugged 4 speed.

some suspension work, what the usual people have suggested in the forum,

a full LED conversion

and a red leather interior.

a full debadge, along with a 2008 marquis tail light and trunk swap.

1997 steering wheel.

I had 6 DSM's two with fully built motors one was a 4g64t. 1 frame off build. they were a lot of fun but I ended up with this and after driving this for about 2 years really fell in love with it. I love the DSM/Evo platforms and may pick one up still but Now that I have a v8 its really my preference.

Well I appreciate everyones input. I will consider everyones suggestions and experience in my parts order.

Why cant I Buy all new races?
I have a nice dial indicator setup. I have kept all the parts so far from the donor rear end. Just curious as to why Its a must to re use any old parts other than the obvious carrier bearings.

thanks for the parts list link, I will look all of those up tonight after work.
When I went from 4.30s to 3.73.and then to 3.27, my pinion bearings and shims were all the same iirc. It's been a while though. The 8.8 is pretty stout and has gone some pretty quick 60' In stock form. Granted not in a 2ton car, but then again we aren't cutting like a 1.3 60' either lol. Ford / Ford racing isn't the "best" but they are proven, especially in the rear end game, they've been doing it for a while.

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  #10  
Old 10-25-2018, 10:36 PM
IndyMerc IndyMerc is offline
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Thanks Bob! a solid pinion spacer and stud kit and girdle are a 100% go, much appreciated.


as for the engine the current unit runs very well. I will cross that road during summer. The mustang cobra guys say they can do 500hp NA on their 4.6 4v. I dont know how much is smoke, if its a pure drag setup etc.

I love the 4v but I am not opposed to going with a the 5.4 ford gt block for the build as I have already been in contact with a shop that builds them. I guess the level of drive ability is subjective as to what a 400hp NA 4.6 would be like, the stock hp levels never felt like the engine was struggling. again Im no engineer but I am sure finding a build with the level of performance I am happy with will not be difficult. any suggestions are also appreciated.

The manual swap sounds awesome I just dont know if it is worth the trouble and cost compared to a beefy auto. All my dsm's were 5 speeds and I miss manual gearboxes.
I have done plenty of transmission replacements and clutch jobs but never built a transmission or converted a car from auto to manual. im guessing the tremec tko 600 is the only choice for cars with this "heft"

My overall philosophy is pretty much in line with the origin of the car, a Super Rad Sport Cruiser with some gusto. There are a lot of nice roads to open up a bit on 8 months out of the year in Indiana.

I did 13 flat in the quarter on pump gas with my dsm talon that had a 4g64t, it was my daily driver for over a year and ran beautifully at 13-17 lbs boost, custom comp cams that were 264's. it dynoed at 317 awhp and 378 trq. had 100mm stroke. super fun car.

this was back in 2007 so yeah Id like something in that ballpark, I sold it to pay for school at the time.

Thanks for all the advice I will research all of these suggestions over the coming week. and post pictures of the install. Y'all have been great!
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  #11  
Old 10-26-2018, 04:23 AM
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2003 MM Rear end build guidance appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyMerc View Post
Thanks Bob! a solid pinion spacer and stud kit and girdle are a 100% go, much appreciated.


as for the engine the current unit runs very well. I will cross that road during summer. The mustang cobra guys say they can do 500hp NA on their 4.6 4v. I dont know how much is smoke, if its a pure drag setup etc.

I love the 4v but I am not opposed to going with a the 5.4 ford gt block for the build as I have already been in contact with a shop that builds them. I guess the level of drive ability is subjective as to what a 400hp NA 4.6 would be like, the stock hp levels never felt like the engine was struggling. again Im no engineer but I am sure finding a build with the level of performance I am happy with will not be difficult. any suggestions are also appreciated.

The manual swap sounds awesome I just dont know if it is worth the trouble and cost compared to a beefy auto. All my dsm's were 5 speeds and I miss manual gearboxes.
I have done plenty of transmission replacements and clutch jobs but never built a transmission or converted a car from auto to manual. im guessing the tremec tko 600 is the only choice for cars with this "heft"

My overall philosophy is pretty much in line with the origin of the car, a Super Rad Sport Cruiser with some gusto. There are a lot of nice roads to open up a bit on 8 months out of the year in Indiana.

I did 13 flat in the quarter on pump gas with my dsm talon that had a 4g64t, it was my daily driver for over a year and ran beautifully at 13-17 lbs boost, custom comp cams that were 264's. it dynoed at 317 awhp and 378 trq. had 100mm stroke. super fun car.

this was back in 2007 so yeah Id like something in that ballpark, I sold it to pay for school at the time.

Thanks for all the advice I will research all of these suggestions over the coming week. and post pictures of the install. Y'all have been great!


I went the hard route with a TR6060 out of a brand new GT500 project car. I do not recommend it unless you are a good fabricator with deep pockets. Manual also puts the absolute hurt on the rear end I learned in the first couple of months. With only the small Trilogy roots blower on the street with street tires I nailed it in first on a roll and crushed the crush washer. Oops. At least I came out of it with a new clock.
https://www.mercurymarauder.net/foru...d.php?t=106531


Talon like this? (Forgive the recording...) Once again, back when she was on the old blower and automatic ripping off 12.1’s.

https://youtu.be/8ePs5H4210s

The look on that dudes face when I pulled up all quiet like and opened the cut outs I used to have was PRICELESS!

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Cobra short block / ProCharger F1-A / Cog drive upgrade / Manley valves / Brian Tooley Racing valve springs / 80# inj. / -8 fuel line / -6 return / Aeromotive 340 pumps and regulator / 2012 GT500 TR6060 six speed / twin disc clutch / Driveshaft Shop GT500 upgraded CV joint shaft / BA5000 blow thru MAF/ 4.10's / Ford Racing 31 spline set up and Girdle / Metco D.S. safety loop / Stainless Works headers, cats, and everything else out back / ClassGlass hood / Bob's hood strut mod / Hurst line lock / Metco control arms / Addco front and rear sway bars / Monroe severe duty shocks all around / Race concepts rotors / Badgeless grille / 35% tint / FBM's interior LED kit and ambient lighting kit / Pioneer FB700 deck / kenwood speaker 4 Ch. / Rockford Fosgate 10" sub and amp / Kicker 6 X 8's all around / back up cam / bluetooth / Pioneer Xm / 704 RWHP 603 RWTQ tuned by Mo's Speedshop.
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  #12  
Old 10-26-2018, 05:04 PM
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Chayton Chayton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyMerc View Post
Thanks Bob! a solid pinion spacer and stud kit and girdle are a 100% go, much appreciated.


as for the engine the current unit runs very well. I will cross that road during summer. The mustang cobra guys say they can do 500hp NA on their 4.6 4v. I dont know how much is smoke, if its a pure drag setup etc.

I love the 4v but I am not opposed to going with a the 5.4 ford gt block for the build as I have already been in contact with a shop that builds them. I guess the level of drive ability is subjective as to what a 400hp NA 4.6 would be like, the stock hp levels never felt like the engine was struggling. again Im no engineer but I am sure finding a build with the level of performance I am happy with will not be difficult. any suggestions are also appreciated.

The manual swap sounds awesome I just dont know if it is worth the trouble and cost compared to a beefy auto. All my dsm's were 5 speeds and I miss manual gearboxes.
I have done plenty of transmission replacements and clutch jobs but never built a transmission or converted a car from auto to manual. im guessing the tremec tko 600 is the only choice for cars with this "heft"

My overall philosophy is pretty much in line with the origin of the car, a Super Rad Sport Cruiser with some gusto. There are a lot of nice roads to open up a bit on 8 months out of the year in Indiana.

I did 13 flat in the quarter on pump gas with my dsm talon that had a 4g64t, it was my daily driver for over a year and ran beautifully at 13-17 lbs boost, custom comp cams that were 264's. it dynoed at 317 awhp and 378 trq. had 100mm stroke. super fun car.

this was back in 2007 so yeah Id like something in that ballpark, I sold it to pay for school at the time.

Thanks for all the advice I will research all of these suggestions over the coming week. and post pictures of the install. Y'all have been great!
500 hp? NA? on a 4v? you sure you aren't getting these stats in reference to the 2003 mustang cobra engine, which came stock with a blower on top?
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  #13  
Old 10-26-2018, 10:45 PM
IndyMerc IndyMerc is offline
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were those gears stock? that's a crazy launch!!!

Well I knew some came with a blower, may have been the 4.6 terminator they didn't specify. I like that front spoiler, Ill have to snag one.

I prefer N/A I know the 5.4 cobra R had around 400 N/A that was a limited edition mustang. I don't want to resort to a cast iron block though either.
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Old 10-26-2018, 10:50 PM
IndyMerc IndyMerc is offline
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could be fluff but here is a video of a guy dyno'ing his mach 1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoYIgjhHgvQ
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Old 10-26-2018, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndyMerc View Post
were those gears stock? that's a crazy launch!!!

Well I knew some came with a blower, may have been the 4.6 terminator they didn't specify. I like that front spoiler, Ill have to snag one.

I prefer N/A I know the 5.4 cobra R had around 400 N/A that was a limited edition mustang. I don't want to resort to a cast iron block though either.
The "terminator" is the 03/04 cobra. They have a 4v aswell but has a blower and has forged internals from factory. You would be extremely hard pressed IMHO to get 450rwhp out of suck small displacement, especially through an auto.

I would go 5.4 if you are dead set on an N/A setup just my .02

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